$100 Challenge

[grayhawk]

 

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond.  I am in the camp that says run scores.  This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

 

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment:  a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

 

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.â€"

 

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book.  Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

 

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out.  Score the run.

 

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

How do you explain away 7.10B which is part of the appeal rule? Just asking is all...

 

 

Manny, there is no need to "explain away" anything with respect to 7.10b, but I will attempt to clarify my position on it.  It is clearly referring to missed bases, whether a runner is advancing or returning to a base.  A runner cannot miss a base he had never even reached.  Advancing simply means that they are moving towards home, while returning means the opposite.  If a runner misses second base while advancing towards third, then he can be out on appeal.  If a runner misses second base while returning to first (as in a caught fly ball situation), then he can be out on appeal.

 

7.10b has no relevance with respect to runners that never reached a base.  Hope that helps.

[Texas Manny]

 

 

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond.  I am in the camp that says run scores.  This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

 

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment:  a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

 

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.â€"

 

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book.  Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

 

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out.  Score the run.

 

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

How do you explain away 7.10B which is part of the appeal rule? Just asking is all...

 

 

Manny, there is no need to "explain away" anything with respect to 7.10b, but I will attempt to clarify my position on it.  It is clearly referring to missed bases, whether a runner is advancing or returning to a base.  A runner cannot miss a base he had never even reached.  Advancing simply means that they are moving towards home, while returning means the opposite.  If a runner misses second base while advancing towards third, then he can be out on appeal.  If a runner misses second base while returning to first (as in a caught fly ball situation), then he can be out on appeal.

 

7.10b has no relevance with respect to runners that never reached a base.  Hope that helps.

 

But that isn't what 7.10B says.

 

Rule 7.10: (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

[Thunderheads]

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.”"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

How do you explain away 7.10B which is part of the appeal rule? Just asking is all...

Manny, there is no need to "explain away" anything with respect to 7.10b, but I will attempt to clarify my position on it. It is clearly referring to missed bases, whether a runner is advancing or returning to a base. A runner cannot miss a base he had never even reached. Advancing simply means that they are moving towards home, while returning means the opposite. If a runner misses second base while advancing towards third, then he can be out on appeal. If a runner misses second base while returning to first (as in a caught fly ball situation), then he can be out on appeal.

7.10b has no relevance with respect to runners that never reached a base. Hope that helps.

But that isn't what 7.10B says.

Rule 7.10: (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

That's fine ....but in the OP ....the b/r hasn't obtained a base

Jeff - via Tapatalk

[Texas Manny]

 

 

 

 

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.â€"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

How do you explain away 7.10B which is part of the appeal rule? Just asking is all...

 

Manny, there is no need to "explain away" anything with respect to 7.10b, but I will attempt to clarify my position on it. It is clearly referring to missed bases, whether a runner is advancing or returning to a base. A runner cannot miss a base he had never even reached. Advancing simply means that they are moving towards home, while returning means the opposite. If a runner misses second base while advancing towards third, then he can be out on appeal. If a runner misses second base while returning to first (as in a caught fly ball situation), then he can be out on appeal.

7.10b has no relevance with respect to runners that never reached a base. Hope that helps.

 

But that isn't what 7.10B says.

Rule 7.10: (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

 

That's fine ....but in the OP ....the b/r hasn't obtained a base

Jeff - via Tapat

Where does 7.10B say he has to obtain a base for it to be effective?

[Haid D' Salaami]

maybe we need to work 4.09 in here

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first,

second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a

play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first

base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is

declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

3rd out was recorded before the BR touched 1st so this wont apply.

[maven]

But that isn't what 7.10B says.

 

Rule 7.10: (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

Yes, that's exactly what 7.10(b) says.

 

You're not reading the rule. The issue concerns failing to touch a base: a missed base. When a runner misses a base, he or the base may be tagged to appeal the miss. The appeal may be made whether the runner is advancing or returning.

[Thunderheads]

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond. I am in the camp that says run scores. This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.”"

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book. Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out. Score the run.

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

How do you explain away 7.10B which is part of the appeal rule? Just asking is all...

Manny, there is no need to "explain away" anything with respect to 7.10b, but I will attempt to clarify my position on it. It is clearly referring to missed bases, whether a runner is advancing or returning to a base. A runner cannot miss a base he had never even reached. Advancing simply means that they are moving towards home, while returning means the opposite. If a runner misses second base while advancing towards third, then he can be out on appeal. If a runner misses second base while returning to first (as in a caught fly ball situation), then he can be out on appeal.

7.10b has no relevance with respect to runners that never reached a base. Hope that helps.

But that isn't what 7.10B says.

Rule 7.10: (b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

That's fine ....but in the OP ....the b/r hasn't obtained a base

Jeff - via Tapat

Where does 7.10B say he has to obtain a base for it to be effective?

Grayhawk explains that

Jeff - via Tapatalk

[Richvee]

Been traveling, so first real opportunity to respond.  I am in the camp that says run scores.  This is clearly NOT an appeal, as appeals are strictly defined in the rule book:

 

( a ) After a fly ball is caught, he fails to retouch his original base before he or his original base is tagged

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment:  a base not yet reached is not missed)

( c ) He overruns or overslides first base and fails to return to the base immediately, and he or the base is tagged;

( d ) He fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged.

 

"Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.â€"

 

Fourth outs are not discussed anywhere else in the rule book.  Therefore, only an appeal play can result in an advantageous fourth out.

 

So, this isn't an appeal play, and only appeal plays can result in a fourth out.  Score the run.

 

The above and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Well said. Hard to refute this logic. I change my mind..score the run. 

 

Put the onus on the defense. F2 should have seen BR not running to 1st and made a play on him and not made a play on R2. 

R2 is tagged for out #3 and at that time no runner has missed a base, so  there's nothing to appeal for a 4th out. Inning over. R1 scores

[JaxRolo]

 

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment:  a base not yet reached is not missed)

Well said. Hard to refute this logic. I change my mind..score the run. 

 

Put the onus on the defense. F2 should have seen BR not running to 1st and made a play on him and not made a play on R2. 

R2 is tagged for out #3 and at that time no runner has missed a base, so  there's nothing to appeal for a 4th out. Inning over. R1 scores

 

It's not failed to touch each base in order AND a missed base. It's OR

 

In this case he failed to touch the base he was advancing to. Therefore appeal-able.

[grayhawk]

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

Well said. Hard to refute this logic. I change my mind..score the run.

Put the onus on the defense. F2 should have seen BR not running to 1st and made a play on him and not made a play on R2.

R2 is tagged for out #3 and at that time no runner has missed a base, so there's nothing to appeal for a 4th out. Inning over. R1 scores

It's not failed to touch each base in order AND a missed base. It's OR

In this case he failed to touch the base he was advancing to. Therefore appeal-able.

The "or" refers to the appeal method. The defense can tag the runner OR the missed base to complete the appeal. Nothing at all to do with appealing a base not yet touched.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JaxRolo]

 

 

 

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

Well said. Hard to refute this logic. I change my mind..score the run.

Put the onus on the defense. F2 should have seen BR not running to 1st and made a play on him and not made a play on R2.

R2 is tagged for out #3 and at that time no runner has missed a base, so there's nothing to appeal for a 4th out. Inning over. R1 scores

 

It's not failed to touch each base in order AND a missed base. It's OR

In this case he failed to touch the base he was advancing to. Therefore appeal-able.

 

The "or" refers to the appeal method. The defense can tag the runner OR the missed base to complete the appeal. Nothing at all to do with appealing a base not yet touched.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

You just don't like to admit when I am right!

 

 

 

 

I'm just trying to present a different argument/opinion. Good discussion!

[grayhawk]

( b ) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged. (My comment: a base not yet reached is not missed)

Well said. Hard to refute this logic. I change my mind..score the run.

Put the onus on the defense. F2 should have seen BR not running to 1st and made a play on him and not made a play on R2.

R2 is tagged for out #3 and at that time no runner has missed a base, so there's nothing to appeal for a 4th out. Inning over. R1 scores

It's not failed to touch each base in order AND a missed base. It's OR

In this case he failed to touch the base he was advancing to. Therefore appeal-able.

The "or" refers to the appeal method. The defense can tag the runner OR the missed base to complete the appeal. Nothing at all to do with appealing a base not yet touched.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You just don't like to admit when I am right!

If that ever happens I'll be the first to admit it!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Haid D' Salaami]

Manny arent you at Umpire school right now?.. if so how are you posting so much?.... and ask this question at the school.

[UmpireFever]

So what is the difference between the batter not running to first...

and the batter running to first and missing first on his way to second...

[maven]

So what is the difference between the batter not running to first...

and the batter running to first and missing first on his way to second...

You cannot miss a base until you pass it.

You cannot grant a missed base appeal without a missed base.

maven

[UmpireFever]

So what is the difference between the batter not running to first...

and the batter running to first and missing first on his way to second...

You cannot miss a base until you pass it.

You cannot grant a missed base appeal without a missed base.

maven

Didn't he miss the base he was forced to run to?

[Pete Peterson Sr]

 

 

So what is the difference between the batter not running to first...

and the batter running to first and missing first on his way to second...

You cannot miss a base until you pass it.

You cannot grant a missed base appeal without a missed base.

maven

Didn't he miss the base he was forced to run to?

 

 

 Maven already answered this question. A runner CANNOT miss a base that he has not reached. Abandonment is not a missed base. Failure to touch a base when passing it is a missed base, and nothing else applies as such.

[JaxRolo]

So what is the difference between the batter not running to first...

and the batter running to first and missing first on his way to second...

You cannot miss a base until you pass it.

You cannot grant a missed base appeal without a missed base.

maven

Post 84 gives you the correct answer

[basejester]

I believe this is where they are getting their interpretation.  Granted, this is a 3rd world play for a player to be injured and never reaching 1st base.  I think we can all agree that on 3rd world plays you just have to umpire.  There wasn't a "That's nothing" on the books in the Red Sox/Reds World Series back in the 70's.  He just umpired, ruled it incidental contact and the rest is history...

 

He followed the instruction to umpires, according to this article  . 

[maven]

So what is the difference between the batter not running to first...

and the batter running to first and missing first on his way to second...

You cannot miss a base until you pass it.

You cannot grant a missed base appeal without a missed base.

maven

Post 84 gives you the correct answer

Post 84 is only a misunderstanding the tortured syntax of the rule.

maven

[Haid D' Salaami]

ok.. I just got a answer from Harry's.....the run scores...this is not the apparent 4th out sit.

[Jimurray]

ok.. I just got a answer from Harry's.....the run scores...this is not the apparent 4th out sit.

Uh, we all knew that's what Harry thinks. And most of us agree with it. But FED and NCAA and JR aficionados believe differently. The NCAA question this year will probably be correct if you rule the run doesn't score. They want to rule one way, OBR rules another way, Carl says, I hope this doesn't happen to you in your game.

[maven]

Why do we think FED is different? 8-2-6i, which introduces the advantageous 4th out, is a subsection of 8-2-6, concerning missed base and retouch appeals, just as in OBR. I see no basis in FED for ruling differently than in OBR.

[Jimurray]

Why do we think FED is different? 8-2-6i, which introduces the advantageous 4th out, is a subsection of 8-2-6, concerning missed base and retouch appeals, just as in OBR. I see no basis in FED for ruling differently than in OBR.

Only because the BRD still has it as a FED and NCAA ruling based on some interps from 2001 approximately. I believe the current BRD has not updated the FED and NCAA interps but has updated the OBR interp but does not document the change. All supposition on my part.

[afaber12]

It seems like those that are on the side of allowing the appeal under 7.10b are missing a key part of the wording:
 

7.10 Any runner shall be called out, on appeal, when—
(b) With the ball in play, while advancing or returning to a base, he fails to touch each base in order before he, or a missed base, is tagged.

 
This has to mean that a runner can only be at risk of an appeal under this rule when he's actually touched a base in an improper order: a batter-runner who steps over or around first and then stands on second on a double, or a runner from first who steps on second on the way to third when the ball is caught, and cuts across the diamond back to first without touching second on the way back, these "missed" bases. The batter-runner hasn't run the bases in the wrong order, and as others have mentioned he can't "miss" first base given he hasn't got to it. If you use this to grant an appeal on the OP, you're opening up a lot of other "appeals" that I'm pretty sure shouldn't be allowed.

 

R1 starts a steal attempt, F2 throws to F4 covering the base. We'd all agree that absent unusual circumstances for R1 to be out he'd have to be tagged with the ball before reaching (or after touching but while not in contact with) the base. If you're willing to uphold the appeal in the OP, then you'd have to be willing to uphold the appeal in this case when F4 catches the throw like an F3 - one foot on the bag, stretching out towards home plate - before R1 slides in. I can imagine that in disagreeing with this someone will point out that the OP is a play on BR forced to first, and that my situation R1 isn't forced. That's true. But where in 7.10b is there any mention of a force? If there's only R2, and he misses third on the way to scoring on BR's hit, he's still at risk of an appeal at third despite not being "forced" to touch third.

 

I think maybe we're thinking (at least I know I have been) thinking that the runner collapsed somewhere up the line and stopped. What if he's hobbling up the line, and making progress towards first but really slowly. R2's called out at the plate, so BR decides to slow down and peels off towards the dugout. Its a few moments later that someone thinks to ask the question at first base. Would you grant the appeal, given that the BR didn't stop attempting to advance until the third out was called? It seems to me that once the third out is made, the inning is over and no more action can take place with the exception of a possible fourth out appeal, and that such an appeal is for events that took place prior to the third out.