How Many Runs Score? Part II

[MidAmUmp]

Bases loaded, 1 out.

 

Batter hits a bases clearing triple.

 

Defense appeals B/R missing 1st base and is called out.

 

Defense then appeals R1 missing 2nd base and is called out.

 

How many runs score?

[conbo61]

I have two runs. By appealing the B/R first, it removed the force from R1. Order of appeal is important.

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[grayhawk]

None.  Third out was a force out, so no runs can score.  BR being called out on appeal does not remove the force on R1.  He was forced at the time of his miss.

[MRG9999]

I would agree with Grayhawk, no runs score due to force out/appeal at 2B and the appeal at 1b for the other out.

[Specks]

2

[Forest Ump]

Two runs in Fed and OBR. No runs in NCAA.

 

 

Edit: Checked my books after this post. NCAA is now consistent with OBR and Fed. Two runs score in all codes. The defense must appeal in the correct order.

[Jimurray]

No runs score in OBR. The force existed at the time of miss. Not sure how NCAA and FED rule.

[Rich Ives]

No runs on OBR. R1 was a force at the time he missed the base so it remains a force upon appeal.

[Mr Umpire]

I agree no runs in OBR.  It only matters if he missed a base he wasn't forced to.

[grayhawk]

Two runs in Fed and OBR. No runs in NCAA.

 

 

Edit: Checked my books after this post. NCAA is now consistent with OBR and Fed. Two runs score in all codes. The defense must appeal in the correct order.

 

That's only if one appeal was a force and one appeal was not a force.  If both appeals are force outs, the order doesn't matter.

[Jimurray]

Two runs in Fed and OBR. No runs in NCAA.

 

 

Edit: Checked my books after this post. NCAA is now consistent with OBR and Fed. Two runs score in all codes. The defense must appeal in the correct order.

What books are you referencing?

[Forest Ump]

 

Two runs in Fed and OBR. No runs in NCAA.

 

 

Edit: Checked my books after this post. NCAA is now consistent with OBR and Fed. Two runs score in all codes. The defense must appeal in the correct order.

 

That's only if one appeal was a force and one appeal was not a force.  If both appeals are force outs, the order doesn't matter.

 

You are right . I screwed the pooch on that one.

[Texas Manny]

No runs. Force out on appeal at second was not removed by the appeal at first, declaring BR out, for 2nd out. No runs score.

[johnnyg08]

Doesn't the definition of a force out involve the batter runner advancing to or past first base forcing the other runner(s) to advance?  

 

So once the batter runner is retired before he advances past first base...doesn't that remove all forces?  

 

Sounds like two runs scoring to me. 

 

If order of appeals doesn't matter, (I happen to think it does) then it could be zero runs as some of you have stated above.

[Rich Ives]

Doesn't the definition of a force out involve the batter runner advancing to or past first base forcing the other runner(s) to advance?  

 

So once the batter runner is retired before he advances past first base...doesn't that remove all forces?  

 

Sounds like two runs scoring to me. 

 

If order of appeals doesn't matter, (I happen to think it does) then it could be zero runs as some of you have stated above.

 

The interp is that if R1 was forced at the time he missed the base then it is still considered a force on appeal. That's why no runs score on this play and subsequent appeals.

[mstaylor]

@MidAmUmp, good question, keep them coming. It keeps us sharp in the off season.  

[Jimurray]

@MidAmUmp, good question, keep them coming. It keeps us sharp in the off season.  

We already came to the proper conclusion for this sit(no runs score)in OBR after I added this sit to a different MAU question.http://umpire-empire.com/index.php/topic/55326-how-many-runs-score/.

But, you said you would check if FED/NCAA rule differently

[mstaylor]

It is the same for all three, I find nothing to the contrary. 

[grayhawk]

Fed reference:  8-2-6k  Third-out Baserunning Infraction

 

...With two outs, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was forced to advance, no runs would score.

[johnnyg08]

That's only if one appeal was a force and one appeal was not a force.  If both appeals are force outs, the order doesn't matter.

This is the key piece right here.

[alex7]

Fed reference:  8-2-6k  Third-out Baserunning Infraction

 

...With two outs, if the base missed was the first to which the batter or runner was forced to advance, no runs would score.

 

I like Grayhawk's statement regarding if the order of appeals matters:  "That's only if one appeal was a force and one appeal was not a force.  If both appeals are force outs, the order doesn't matter."

whoops, johnny beat me to it.

[conbo61]

There is a similar play in Carl Childress' new book "Inside the Books - A Concise Look at the ABC's of Baseball Rules".  Plays 6 & 7 on page 3.  Here he states that the ORDER of the appeals is relevant.  I think there may be a typo in the plays as presented in the book and I have sent him an email asking for a clarification, but have yet to receive a reply.

[grayhawk]

There is a similar play in Carl Childress' new book "Inside the Books - A Concise Look at the ABC's of Baseball Rules".  Plays 6 & 7 on page 3.  Here he states that the ORDER of the appeals is relevant.  I think there may be a typo in the plays as presented in the book and I have sent him an email asking for a clarification, but have yet to receive a reply.

 

Post the plays.

[conbo61]

Page 3

 

"Appeals must be made in the proper order.

 

Play 6 - Bottom of the fourth, R2, R3, 1 out. B1 lines into the gap.  R3 scores. R2 misses third and scores. B1 reaches second, but he misses first.  When the action is over, the defense appeals that B1 missed first and the appeals that R2 missed third.  The umpire agrees with both appeals.

 

Ruling: B1 was declared out for the second out.  His out at first base removed the force on R2, so his out at third was not a force out..  Count R3's run.  Appealed in this order, the offensive skipper may have to be restricted (FED) or ejected (NCAA/OBR) since he won't understand why both outs are not force plays.

 

On the other hand:

 

Play 7:  Same as Play 6 except that the defense begins with an appeal that R2 missed third AFTER WHICH they appeal that B1 missed first.  R2's out, then, was the second out.  B1's was the third out.  Appealed in this order, no runs scored because the third out resulted from B1's failure to make first."

 

The bold and caps are the emphasis of Mr. Childress, not mine.  I have posted these verbatim from the book. (Hope I don't get smacked with a copyright infringement suit)

 

As I noted above, I have sent Mr. Childress an email requesting clarification on the position of the runners and the force situation, but have yet to hear back. 

[grayhawk]

It's obviously wrong since R2 could not be forced since there was no R1. However, that play is the classic one to demonstrate the order of appeals. In the first scenario, R3s run scores since the third out was not a force out - not because the appeal on the BR removed the force, but because it never was a force. The second scenario is accurate. No run scores because the third out was made by the BR before touching first. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk