How Many Runs Score? Part II

[conbo61]

It's obviously wrong since R2 could not be forced since there was no R1. However, that play is the classic one to demonstrate the order of appeals. In the first scenario, R3s run scores since the third out was not a force out - not because the appeal on the BR removed the force, but because it never was a force. The second scenario is accurate. No run scores because the third out was made by the BR before touching first.

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Agreed on the "how can R2 be forced?" aspect.  It was the basis of my question.  However, the explanation/ruling seems to indicate that the ORDER of the appeals is relevant.

 

I am not trying to be a "problem child" here.  Just trying to get it right.

[Jimurray]

It's obviously wrong since R2 could not be forced since there was no R1. However, that play is the classic one to demonstrate the order of appeals. In the first scenario, R3s run scores since the third out was not a force out - not because the appeal on the BR removed the force, but because it never was a force. The second scenario is accurate. No run scores because the third out was made by the BR before touching first.

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Agreed on the "how can R2 be forced?" aspect.  It was the basis of my question.  However, the explanation/ruling seems to indicate that the ORDER of the appeals is relevant.

 

I am not trying to be a "problem child" here.  Just trying to get it right.

Carl's BRD order of appeals section uses that term and quotes some authorities but does not specify if they are talking about forced or unforced situations. The only play example, as in your reference, is a forced- unforced situation. If you ask if the order of appeals matters, yes it does in certain situations. Current Wendelstedt and, I believe J- R, interps say that if the force existed at the time of the miss it will be a force upon appeal.

[Carl Childress]

Bases loaded, 1 out.

 

Batter hits a bases clearing triple.

 

Defense appeals B/R missing 1st base and is called out.

 

Defense then appeals R1 missing 2nd base and is called out.

 

How many runs score?

 

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People get mixed up because of the "apparent fourth out." Here's a passage from the 2014 BRD that explains the problem. It will make it easy to understand when appeals must be made in the "correct order.":

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From Section 13

 

Well-known “experts†have complained that appeals have no proper order. “The defense can always pick the most advantageous out,†they claim. They are clearly ignorant of the definition of “apparent fourth out.†The key is: how many are out when the appeals begin? Compare Play (a) and (b) below:

 

Play (a): R3, R1, 1 out. B1 doubles, R3 scores, R1 goes to third. The defense appeals B1 at first. Upheld, 2 outs. R3’s run counts. The defense appeals R1 at second: Upheld, 3 outs. R3’s run counts. Appeals are responsible for two of the three outs. So, if B1 is appealed first and upheld, that removes the force on R1. Each appeal is necessary to secure three outs. Because of the order of appeals, the third out was not a force out; hence, R3’s run counts.

 

BUT:

 

Play (b): R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 doubles. R3 and R2 score. The defense appeals R2 at third: Upheld, 3 outs, R3’s run counts. So the defense appeals B1 at first. Upheld, 4 outs. The defense elects the “advantageous†fourth out, which cancels R3’s run since the batter-runner did not make first safely.

 

Note: I read one post that was using the NCAA rule about what removes a force play. In NCAA, a force in effect at the time of the pitch remains in effect for the during of the play if baserunning errors are at issue. I am aware of this rule because I convinced Don Edwards, the NCAA rules editor, to add it to the rulebook in the early 80s. No brag, just fact, as Walter Brennan said in "The Guns of Will Sonnett."

 

Papa C

 

 

 

 

 

[Jimurray]

Bases loaded, 1 out.

 

Batter hits a bases clearing triple.

 

Defense appeals B/R missing 1st base and is called out.

 

Defense then appeals R1 missing 2nd base and is called out.

 

How many runs score?

 

---------------------

People get mixed up because of the "apparent fourth out." Here's a passage from the 2014 BRD that explains the problem. It will make it easy to understand when appeals must be made in the "correct order.":

----------------

From Section 13

 

Well-known “experts†have complained that appeals have no proper order. “The defense can always pick the most advantageous out,†they claim. They are clearly ignorant of the definition of “apparent fourth out.†the key is: how many are out when the appeals begin? Compare Play (a) and (b) below:

 

Play (a): R3, R1, 1 out. B1 doubles, R3 scores, R1 goes to third. The defense appeals B1 at first. Upheld, 2 outs. R3’s run counts. The defense appeals R1 at second: Upheld, 3 outs. R3’s run counts. Appeals are responsible for two of the three outs. So, if B1 is appealed first and upheld, that removes the force on R1. Each appeal is necessary to secure three outs. Because of the order of appeals, the third out was not a force out; hence, R3’s run counts.d

 

BUT:

 

Play (b): R3, R2, 2 outs. B1 doubles. R3 and R2 score. The defense appeals R2 at third: Upheld, 3 outs, R3’s run counts. So the defense appeals B1 at first. Upheld, 4 outs. The defense elects the “advantageous†fourth out, which cancels R3’s run since the batter-runner did not make first safely.

 

Note: I read one post that was using the NCAA rule about what removes a force play. In NCAA, a force in effect at the time of the pitcher remains in effect for the during of the play if baserunning errors are at issue. I am aware of this rule because I convinced Don Edwards, the NCAA rules editor, to add it to the rulebook in the early 80s. No brag, just fact, as Walter Brennan said in "The Guns of Will Sonnett."

 

Papa C

So now Carl, an expert, differs from Wendelstedt, another expert, and possibly Jaska-Roder although I don't have their book. I think the NCAA reference is during live action (which is not the same as a live ball) when a BR might be put out after passing 1B and an appeal of R2 missing 2B is later made.

I can go either way, thinking it's not something that might happen to me.

[UmpTTS43]

Under OBR, when there are multiple appeals concerning missed bases, the status of the runner at the time the base is missed takes precedence regardless of what order the appeals take place.

There has been some contradicting interps within the NCAA but I believed this was resolved either last year or the year before. I will look into it since I will be back into that rule set soon.

[mstaylor]

I believe this was discussed recently and the question was sent for clarification and the appeals for two forced runners do not matter as far as order. Nonforced/forced combo, does matter.