Expanded Strike Zone for Little League

[Guest Brian Murphy]

I am a little league coach for 10-12 year olds and I have a philosophical difference with the head umpire in our league and I want to get the opinions of those on the boards here. Recently our kid umpires (our league does not use adults for this age contrary to little league rules, but that's ok) stated telling us coaches during the pre-game meeting that "their" strike zone is from the armpits to the tops of the knees and a baseball's width on the inside and outside of the plate. My objection is that they are not enforcing the strike zone according to the rules of the game and they are giving the pitcher an unfair advantage over the hitter. Our league has a sheet of "local rules" and it does NOT say there is an expanded strike zone for this age. I ask why they are not enforcing the rules of the game and I get a BS answer about encouraging kids to swing and that they don't want a "walk fest."

My argument is that

1) the strike zone is clearly defined in the rule book

2) "encouraging" kids to swing is not the umpires job, that's a coaches job to teach the kids strike zone discipline

3) we as coaches are fully capable of removing a pitcher who has walked a few batters and that's not the concern of the umpire

4) an expanded strike zone only encourages kids to swing at more bad pitches, causing mor swinging k's and backwards k's

5) and umpires job is to Officiate the game fairly according to ALL the rules, not most of them

6) umpires cannot unilaterally decide to make up their own rules

Now I am catching hell because I am questioning this "unwritten" expanded strike zone philosophy and all I am asking is for all of our umpires to call the strike zone according to the definition in the rules!! Is this an unreasonable request?

[Guest ump570]

There are a few flaws with the umpires side here:

Umpires says things like "that won't work" or "there's no way I'm not going to call a wide zone". But then all umpires always call a wide zone, so you have no idea what would happen if you didn't. You only assume you do. We have a half dozen kids in our league who can hit that spot 80% of the time. They also have a change and curve. We won our ll district game against a good hitting team 10-0 in 5. Pitcher pitched a perfect game. Note that one of your justifications is that a wide zone makes for a more exciting game. Note also "exciting" in baseball is subjective. The rules of baseball should be objective.

You all justify this by saying that's just the way it is. Most of the discussion above is this way. "That's the way it is - might as well get used to it.". That's hardly a well reasoned, rational debate.

Have you ever considered that this encourages sloppy pitching? You can't use the "aggressive hitting" argument without introducing discussion around sloppy pitching. It's the other side of this "coin". Our league calls a huge strike zone. There's an area nearby that we don't play until playoffs that calls it tighter. They routinely have better pitching AND hitting. Not surprising. It's common sense.

What's happening here is pretty simple. If umpires had to accept they were wrong about this, they'd have to swallow there pride and admit they've been doing it wrong since the dawn of time. That's not going to happen. Human nature.

play ball! (just use a nice long bat for those two strike pitches)

 

Did you ever watch Greg Maddux pitch? He routinely got pitches just off the plate called strikes, and this was the big leagues. I was a catcher in college, and there were plenty of umpires in Division II who called pitches just off the black strikes. Rather than saying that every umpire is an idiot, maybe you should defer to the experience of guys who have played and umpired at the highest levels. You are a little league coach. Try to learn the game from people who have been there.  I don't believe for a second there are several kids in your league who can hit a spot just off the plate 80% of the time. I've umpired nearly 100 games this year, most of them travel ball, and I still haven't come across one pitcher of LL age who could execute their locations 80% of the time. And these are very good pitchers.  Have you watched the College World Series? Some of these guys have big zones too.  You don't understand, the ball only has to touch part of the plate as it passes through the zone to be a strike. Pitchers aren't throwing straight over the top, so the ball moves east and west as well as north south and it could easily pass through the strike zone and then appear to  be caught off the plate, especially with Little League catchers who aren't as adept at framing and sit back further.

 

I also love how you try to explain away another leagues superiority to yours by blaming your league's umpires. Of course it has nothing to do with how those kids are coached and taught the game. It has nothing to do with the fact that this league may just have better baseball players. No, it's all the umpires fault. I have to say, I've never heard a team say, "You know what, we would have kicked that teams ass in districts if only we had better umpires during the season."

[treydawgmt]

There are a few flaws with the umpires side here:

Umpires says things like "that won't work" or "there's no way I'm not going to call a wide zone". But then all umpires always call a wide zone, so you have no idea what would happen if you didn't. You only assume you do. We have a half dozen kids in our league who can hit that spot 80% of the time. They also have a change and curve. We won our ll district game against a good hitting team 10-0 in 5. Pitcher pitched a perfect game. Note that one of your justifications is that a wide zone makes for a more exciting game. Note also "exciting" in baseball is subjective. The rules of baseball should be objective.

You all justify this by saying that's just the way it is. Most of the discussion above is this way. "That's the way it is - might as well get used to it.". That's hardly a well reasoned, rational debate.

Have you ever considered that this encourages sloppy pitching? You can't use the "aggressive hitting" argument without introducing discussion around sloppy pitching. It's the other side of this "coin". Our league calls a huge strike zone. There's an area nearby that we don't play until playoffs that calls it tighter. They routinely have better pitching AND hitting. Not surprising. It's common sense.

What's happening here is pretty simple. If umpires had to accept they were wrong about this, they'd have to swallow there pride and admit they've been doing it wrong since the dawn of time. That's not going to happen. Human nature.

play ball! (just use a nice long bat for those two strike pitches)

 

 

While I don't condone telling coaches where you call, and don't necessarily agree w/2 balls outside all the time, I'll tell you your logic that we call pitches too wide is very flawed.  The plate is 17" wide.  The ball is 3" wide.  (Well, I think it's a tenth or two smaller than that, but let's say 3").  2 balls on the outside AND 2 balls on the inside is 6" and 6" for each.  17" + 12" = 29".  Most bats used by kids are between 29" and 32".  Clearly enough to hit two balls inside through two balls outside.  Swing the damn bat!

[Guest Guest]

I have to admit. If my pitcher is throwing a ball just outside or inside and hitting the catchers mitt without it being moved an inch..those balls in the first inning more often than not become called strikes in the third and fourth innings, and I think that is just the nature of umps and of baseball. Personally, I think far too many youth league umps call too many strikes that are mid shin or below and not enough that are at the letters.

[BigUmpire]

I have to admit. If my pitcher is throwing a ball just outside or inside and hitting the catchers mitt without it being moved an inch..those balls in the first inning more often than not become called strikes in the third and fourth innings, and I think that is just the nature of umps and of baseball. Personally, I think far too many youth league umps call too many strikes that are mid shin or below and not enough that are at the letters.

"umps call too many strikes"

 

Strap on the gear and call about 100 games. Let us know how you feel then.

[SoCal Lurker]

 

I have to admit. If my pitcher is throwing a ball just outside or inside and hitting the catchers mitt without it being moved an inch..those balls in the first inning more often than not become called strikes in the third and fourth innings, and I think that is just the nature of umps and of baseball. Personally, I think far too many youth league umps call too many strikes that are mid shin or below and not enough that are at the letters.

"umps call too many strikes"

 

Strap on the gear and call about 100 games. Let us know how you feel then.

 

 

but that's not what he said.  He said "many youth league umps call too many strikes that are mid shin or below and not enough that are at the letters."   

[BigUmp56]

Let's get back to the point that I was originally trying to make... the strike zone has a definition as the space OVER the plate.  What part of the rules say that an umpire can just call the zone from line to line?  is line to line OVER the plate?  No.  So why do you all say you have your "own" zone?  Because you want to speed up the game?  Because you want to "encourage" kids to swing?  The whole point is that the zone is the zone and umpires should respect the rules and not deviate from what the definition of the zone is.  Now in reality, I am well aware that umpires are not perfect and balls and strikes are called outside the official zone and that's ok, I get it.  But fundamentally saying that you will not enforce the rules is just plain wrong.

 

If LL wanted you to expand the zone then it would be in the book or there would be dedicated footnotes to the strike zone definition for specific age groups....  We have a 2 hour time limit for every game, so why not ump the game by the book?  I have seen other little leagues adopt a "local rule" for expanding the zone for younger ages and that's great because it's written down and everyone knows the local rule.  In our league there is NO local rule, and why do umpires feel this criticism of not enforcing the rules of the game is an affront to their work?  You are taught to be professional and fair and to umpire the game according to the rules... I'm glad none of you are my lawyer.

 

 

Take a minute and find the American Legion Umpire's Manual online. Scroll down through the manual and take a look at how the strike zone is to be called at that level. What you'll see is a picture of a batter standing beside a plate with one ball laying on the inside of the plate, and one ball laying on the outside of the plate, with the lines of the zone being approximately 22" wide. Now, as you look at it I want you to think about what caliber of players compete in Legion ball, and understand what the ages of the players are. This league, at least in this area, is a Summer showcase for the BEST high school players. And if their zone should be that wide, why in the world would anyone want the pitchers in LL, at 10 years of age, to be held to a higher standard?

 

 

Tim.

[basejester]

Take a minute and find the American Legion Umpire's Manual online. Scroll down through the manual and take a look at how the strike zone is to be called at that level. What you'll see is a picture of a batter standing beside a plate with one ball laying on the inside of the plate, and one ball laying on the outside of the plate, with the lines of the zone being approximately 22" wide. Now, as you look at it I want you to think about what caliber of players compete in Legion ball, and understand what the ages of the players are. This league, at least in this area, is a Summer showcase for the BEST high school players. And if their zone should be that wide, why in the world would anyone want the pitchers in LL, at 10 years of age, to be held to a higher standard?

That picture illustrates the rulebook width of the strike zone for Little League and for MLB.

A STRIKE is a legal pitch when so called by the umpire, which—

. . .

(b) Is not struck at, if any part of the ball passes through any part of the strike

zone;

 

The difference between the rulebook width and within the lines of the batter's box is 1 inch.  It's almost the same damn thing, even assuming the box is right and the umpire's eyes are perfect.

[Rich Ives]

 

Let's get back to the point that I was originally trying to make... the strike zone has a definition as the space OVER the plate.  What part of the rules say that an umpire can just call the zone from line to line?  is line to line OVER the plate?  No.  So why do you all say you have your "own" zone?  Because you want to speed up the game?  Because you want to "encourage" kids to swing?  The whole point is that the zone is the zone and umpires should respect the rules and not deviate from what the definition of the zone is.  Now in reality, I am well aware that umpires are not perfect and balls and strikes are called outside the official zone and that's ok, I get it.  But fundamentally saying that you will not enforce the rules is just plain wrong.

 

If LL wanted you to expand the zone then it would be in the book or there would be dedicated footnotes to the strike zone definition for specific age groups....  We have a 2 hour time limit for every game, so why not ump the game by the book?  I have seen other little leagues adopt a "local rule" for expanding the zone for younger ages and that's great because it's written down and everyone knows the local rule.  In our league there is NO local rule, and why do umpires feel this criticism of not enforcing the rules of the game is an affront to their work?  You are taught to be professional and fair and to umpire the game according to the rules... I'm glad none of you are my lawyer.

 

 

Take a minute and find the American Legion Umpire's Manual online. Scroll down through the manual and take a look at how the strike zone is to be called at that level. What you'll see is a picture of a batter standing beside a plate with one ball laying on the inside of the plate, and one ball laying on the outside of the plate, with the lines of the zone being approximately 22" wide. Now, as you look at it I want you to think about what caliber of players compete in Legion ball, and understand what the ages of the players are. This league, at least in this area, is a Summer showcase for the BEST high school players. And if their zone should be that wide, why in the world would anyone want the pitchers in LL, at 10 years of age, to be held to a higher standard?

 

 

Tim.

 

 

That IS a strike - if any part of the ball touches the zone it's a strike.

 

One ball "OFF the plate" isn't. Two definitely isn't.

 

And again - LL players are small with short arms and short bats. They cannot reach the outside pitches off the plate. Just because a 5'11 player with a 34" bat can doesn't mean you should expect a 5' player with a 29" bat do do so.

[BigUmp56]

Interesting interpretation of how The American Legion wants their zone to be called. I've been to a half a dozen clinics put on by The American Legion for umpires, and at each one, we were encouraged to expand the zone to call any portion of a ball that knicks the expanded zone a strike. I've called both junior and senior state and regional tournaments, and with very little exception it was called that way.

 

Tim.

[grayhawk]

Here is the typical strike zone (the hash marked box) in MLB (that's MAJOR League Baseball) for right-handed batters across all of the umpires.  Note, the solid line represents the rule book zone and and ball touching any part of it should be a strike.  However, MLB umpires, as a group, tend to call strikes that touch any part of the hash-marked box a strike.  They call it even farther out (but not as far in) for left-handed batters.

 

 

And some folks think we should stick to the strict rule book interpretation of the zone for 10 year olds?

[RichMSN]

 

 

Let's get back to the point that I was originally trying to make... the strike zone has a definition as the space OVER the plate.  What part of the rules say that an umpire can just call the zone from line to line?  is line to line OVER the plate?  No.  So why do you all say you have your "own" zone?  Because you want to speed up the game?  Because you want to "encourage" kids to swing?  The whole point is that the zone is the zone and umpires should respect the rules and not deviate from what the definition of the zone is.  Now in reality, I am well aware that umpires are not perfect and balls and strikes are called outside the official zone and that's ok, I get it.  But fundamentally saying that you will not enforce the rules is just plain wrong.

 

If LL wanted you to expand the zone then it would be in the book or there would be dedicated footnotes to the strike zone definition for specific age groups....  We have a 2 hour time limit for every game, so why not ump the game by the book?  I have seen other little leagues adopt a "local rule" for expanding the zone for younger ages and that's great because it's written down and everyone knows the local rule.  In our league there is NO local rule, and why do umpires feel this criticism of not enforcing the rules of the game is an affront to their work?  You are taught to be professional and fair and to umpire the game according to the rules... I'm glad none of you are my lawyer.

 

 

Take a minute and find the American Legion Umpire's Manual online. Scroll down through the manual and take a look at how the strike zone is to be called at that level. What you'll see is a picture of a batter standing beside a plate with one ball laying on the inside of the plate, and one ball laying on the outside of the plate, with the lines of the zone being approximately 22" wide. Now, as you look at it I want you to think about what caliber of players compete in Legion ball, and understand what the ages of the players are. This league, at least in this area, is a Summer showcase for the BEST high school players. And if their zone should be that wide, why in the world would anyone want the pitchers in LL, at 10 years of age, to be held to a higher standard?

 

 

Tim.

 

 

That IS a strike - if any part of the ball touches the zone it's a strike.

 

One ball "OFF the plate" isn't. Two definitely isn't.

 

And again - LL players are small with short arms and short bats. They cannot reach the outside pitches off the plate. Just because a 5'11 player with a 34" bat can doesn't mean you should expect a 5' player with a 29" bat do do so.

 

 

The batter's box is 4" off the plate.  Some of the kids that have trouble reaching the corners stand too far away from the plate.

 

I find this entire conversation amusing.  I'll continue to call strikes the way I always have and I'm sure so will just about everyone else.  People find it amusing when I say that my LL zone isn't remarkably different from my college zone, but I'm quite serious.  I give a good healthy corner (inside and outside) at all levels.  

 

The only difference in my LL zone is that I consciously call higher pitches strikes.  

[basejester]

 

Interesting interpretation of how The American Legion wants their zone to be called. I've been to a half a dozen clinics put on by The American Legion for umpires, and at each one, we were encouraged to expand the zone to call any portion of a ball that knicks the expanded zone a strike. I've called both junior and senior state and regional tournaments, and with very little exception it was called that way.

 

Tim.

To call a strike, any ball that crosses any part of the plate above the top of the knees to mid-chest.

The diagram implies a contrast with the OBR strikezone width, but that text matches the OBR. Despite the sentence fragment, I think it's pretty clear that the ball has to nick the projection of the plate to be a strike. I'm not sure that the author understands the OBR definition of a strike.

Does this diagram say to you, call a strike if no part of the ball is farther than two ball widths from the plate?

[BigUmp56]

To me, as it's been explained and the way I see it called, is that a strike should be called if any part of the ball knicks any part of that expanded 22" area. At LL Central Region they lay one ball on the inside and two balls on the outside and tell us to call a strike if any part of the ball knicks that area. Way too much on the outside, in my opinion.

 

Tim.

[Umpiresoftball]

There is usually time limit for these games as well as trying to have kids to swing.  I see where your coming from but there telling you what there calling so give the heads up to the kids. We are ask by are uic to expand strike zone.

[Celerion]

The LL Rulebook states it as such, but in my own practice, I will call a little wider of a strike zone shoulders to knees if agreed upon by both coaches pre-game. I know by stating it I am opening myself up for some possible disagreement, but at the minors level in LL (usually 8-10 or 11), if you call the tight strikezone most kids will end up walking to first and a slightly wider strikezone encourages batters to actually swing at easily hittable pitches. I think that the key here from the umpiring side is a consistent strikezone which comes from both training and experience. Would ask that coaches remember that it is LL and not semi-pro ball, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't encourage your kids to keep improving , just remember that it is first and foremost important to try to make it a positive experience while still keeping it fair. There are no college sports recruiters there, so just have fun and try to teach them how to play the game well. Thank for posting the question, clarification is always good.

[KLAH316]

The LL Rulebook states it as such, but in my own practice, I will call a little wider of a strike zone shoulders to knees if agreed upon by both coaches pre-game. I know by stating it I am opening myself up for some possible disagreement, but at the minors level in LL (usually 8-10 or 11), if you call the tight strikezone most kids will end up walking to first and a slightly wider strikezone encourages batters to actually swing at easily hittable pitches. I think that the key here from the umpiring side is a consistent strikezone which comes from both training and experience. Would ask that coaches remember that it is LL and not semi-pro ball, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't encourage your kids to keep improving , just remember that it is first and foremost important to try to make it a positive experience while still keeping it fair. There are no college sports recruiters there, so just have fun and try to teach them how to play the game well. Thank for posting the question, clarification is always good.

WHAT??????

 

NEVER EVER talk about the strike zone at the plate meeting..... They will figure it out soon enough.

You are opening yourself up to "You SAID that would be a Strike/Ball"

 

Don't do it.

[RichMSN]

The LL Rulebook states it as such, but in my own practice, I will call a little wider of a strike zone shoulders to knees if agreed upon by both coaches pre-game. I know by stating it I am opening myself up for some possible disagreement, but at the minors level in LL (usually 8-10 or 11), if you call the tight strikezone most kids will end up walking to first and a slightly wider strikezone encourages batters to actually swing at easily hittable pitches. I think that the key here from the umpiring side is a consistent strikezone which comes from both training and experience. Would ask that coaches remember that it is LL and not semi-pro ball, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't encourage your kids to keep improving , just remember that it is first and foremost important to try to make it a positive experience while still keeping it fair. There are no college sports recruiters there, so just have fun and try to teach them how to play the game well. Thank for posting the question, clarification is always good.

 

Coaches have no input in your strike zone.  Why would you ever ask for their opinion?

[basejester]

The way to illustrate anything that nicks the width of the plate plus two ball widths on each side is to lay 3 balls next to each side of the plate.  That's pretty darn wide.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

Let's get back to the point that I was originally trying to make... the strike zone has a definition as the space OVER the plate.  What part of the rules say that an umpire can just call the zone from line to line?  is line to line OVER the plate?  No.  So why do you all say you have your "own" zone?  Because you want to speed up the game?  Because you want to "encourage" kids to swing?  The whole point is that the zone is the zone and umpires should respect the rules and not deviate from what the definition of the zone is.  Now in reality, I am well aware that umpires are not perfect and balls and strikes are called outside the official zone and that's ok, I get it.  But fundamentally saying that you will not enforce the rules is just plain wrong.

 

If LL wanted you to expand the zone then it would be in the book or there would be dedicated footnotes to the strike zone definition for specific age groups....  We have a 2 hour time limit for every game, so why not ump the game by the book?  I have seen other little leagues adopt a "local rule" for expanding the zone for younger ages and that's great because it's written down and everyone knows the local rule.  In our league there is NO local rule, and why do umpires feel this criticism of not enforcing the rules of the game is an affront to their work?  You are taught to be professional and fair and to umpire the game according to the rules... I'm glad none of you are my lawyer.

 

 

Take a minute and find the American Legion Umpire's Manual online. Scroll down through the manual and take a look at how the strike zone is to be called at that level. What you'll see is a picture of a batter standing beside a plate with one ball laying on the inside of the plate, and one ball laying on the outside of the plate, with the lines of the zone being approximately 22" wide. Now, as you look at it I want you to think about what caliber of players compete in Legion ball, and understand what the ages of the players are. This league, at least in this area, is a Summer showcase for the BEST high school players. And if their zone should be that wide, why in the world would anyone want the pitchers in LL, at 10 years of age, to be held to a higher standard?

 

 

Tim.

 

 

That IS a strike - if any part of the ball touches the zone it's a strike.

 

One ball "OFF the plate" isn't. Two definitely isn't.

 

And again - LL players are small with short arms and short bats. They cannot reach the outside pitches off the plate. Just because a 5'11 player with a 34" bat can doesn't mean you should expect a 5' player with a 29" bat do do so.

 

 

The batter's box is 4" off the plate.  Some of the kids that have trouble reaching the corners stand too far away from the plate.

 

I find this entire conversation amusing.  I'll continue to call strikes the way I always have and I'm sure so will just about everyone else.  People find it amusing when I say that my LL zone isn't remarkably different from my college zone, but I'm quite serious.  I give a good healthy corner (inside and outside) at all levels.  

 

The only difference in my LL zone is that I consciously call higher pitches strikes.  

 

 

Yes - some stand too far off the plate. But stand with your toes touching the line 4" from the plate and you can't hit the inside pitch.

[MRG9999]

I call the strike zone from the chest (arm pits) to the knees.  As long as the ball crosses the plate or touches the imaginary vertical lines outside or inside within that zone it is fair game for a strike.  What I hate is a catcher trying to frame a pitch and continues to hold it there.  I won't say anything to him for two or three times, other than that he is told to get the ball back to the pitcher. If he continues doing that, he is given a verbal warning.  

[Just-Call-It]

I think of the strike zone as being more of an EGG shape. Meaning... I am tighter to the edge of the plate at the top and bottom of the zone, especially the top, expanded slightly up or down in the chute, and wider (1b in 1.5b out on average) just above the knees to the waist. Depending on the 'level of play', my 'egg' will be more or less squished - meaning shorter top to bottom but wider left to right - HS requires it more squished.

 

It was a fairly easy process to implement this philosophy and it's served me extremely well and made my zone very consistent while IMO still encouraging aggressive hitting while at the same time not forcing hitters to swing at stuff truly out of the zone.

 

[JaxRolo]

At lower levels there is no need to get fancy with oval shaped strike zones. Grab your strikes. Make them swing the bat.

[Just-Call-It]

At lower levels there is no need to get fancy with oval shaped strike zones. Grab your strikes. Make them swing the bat.

 

Agreed. Thankfully - since I'm 6'3" and request to not be assigned the 10U or 12U games - assigners usually stick me in the 14U & 16U for youth leagues... those little ballplayers in the 10U & 12U are rough on the knees to see. But I totally agree with your logic.

 

But for me though, I keep the same shape everywhere I go - just make it bigger, smaller, higher, lower depending on the association/level I am calling. Craziest thing... I worked an All World Sports SB tournament where the UIC wanted nothing above the belt called... it's painful to watch a ball come in belly-button right down the middle and not call it... rough I say!

[Platejob29]

First off if the umpire is telling you his zone at the plate meeting you have bigger problems than what ever his or her zone might be. Second if you ask him what his zone is then stop coaching now. That is extremely unprofessional and should never be done. Third the zone you described not only sounded like it was pretty spot on with LL rules but it actually leaves the pitcher with a disadvantage. In LL they do not define the hallow of the knee as the bottom of the zone but instead the top of the knee. Any good pitcher will tell you to be successful over a period of a game you must keep the ball down for the most part. Rewarding a pitcher for throwing high pitches will only hurt him over the course of a game. High pitches get hit harder and further. Lastly you said the zone that the umpire described was big. Given how terrible LL baseball can be and how inconsistent the pitchers can be I think the zone sounded a bit small.

[mbrown2097]

Just keep it reasonable.  If a kid shouldn't be swinging at it, ball it.  They need to learn to take a pitch that is a ball as much as they need to learn to swing at a strike.