Couple Plays from Last Night's JV Game.

[GreyhoundAggie]

A couple of situations or plays that I had last night. I wanted to run them by you. I had the pot for the game.

 

This is JV, FED rules. My partner is a very senior guy, in his 60's.

 

No one on. Outs don't matter. Had a dropped strike 3. Ball rolls away a bit. The B/R starts running to 1st, he is in the running lane. Catcher yells outside, throws the ball, and hits the B/R in the back. B/R makes it to 1st safely.

My partner goes "No no no, we got an out here." The offensive head coach comes out to argue. I creep up towards the conversation to listen. My partner's explanation is that since the defense yelled "outside" that the B/R has to be on the inside of the line. The coach of course was unhappy, and said "So it's up to my player to listen for the call, and move accordingly? So that means we could just lie if we were on defense." He asked my partner to get help or ask me. My partner didn't. The coach comes and asks me to get with him.

I called my partner over, and I told him I thought he was applying the rule incorrectly. The B/R has every right to be in the runner's lane, that is what it is there for, and it is up to the defense to work around him.  He told me he disagreed, and that he was 100% right, but that I was the man in charge and it was up to me. I reversed the call, and the defensive head coach comes out to discuss the call with me. He asked me how I could overturn my partner's call. I told him because it was a rule misapplication and not a judgement call that I was changing it. Between innings he told me he knew I was right, but that he had to come out since I changed it.

 

So 2 questions. 1. Did I apply the rule correctly? I am 100% positive I did, but I could be wrong. 2. Was I wrong to step in and overturn my partner? I never would on a judgement call, but I felt I had to on what I believed to be an incorrect rule interpretation.

 

Situation 2.

Later in the game. R1 and R3. R1 walks off and tries to get in a run down. F1 steps off and catches R1 in a pickle. R3 breaks for home and they throw to F2. F2 is standing in the middle of the base path. R3 slows to a stop about 2-3 ft from F2 as the ball is coming in to F2 because he thinks he is gonna catch the ball. F2 drops the throw, and R3 then comes to a stop and turns around back to 3rd because F2 is in his way. He makes it safely back to 3rd.

 

I call time and award R3 home on obstruction. F2 never had possesion of the ball and was squarely in the base path. The defensive coach came out to argue and I stated my position.

 

Did I make the right call here probably? I realize it is probably a had to be there play. R3 didn't want to truck F2 since he looked like he was gonna make the play, but then F2 didn't make the play.

 

Thanks for your input guys.

[scrounge]

Those are some interesting situations, thanks. In #1, I can see both sides but on balance I think you did the right thing. Yea, your partner didn't come to you, but sometimes it's in everyone's enlightened best interests to save someone from themselves. Kind of like the Tim Welke call last year - almost never inject yourself if you know a call was wrong but not asked for help, but if it's so grossly wrong....save your partner from being the lead on Sportscenter that night. And in this case, it's not even a judgment call as you stated. Plus as PU, it's possibly your call anyway.

[JaxRolo]

I think that you did the right thing in both instances. But may be that POT you were smoking had you doubting yourself.

[mstaylor]

Sounds like you got it right in both cases. On the the first one unless he comes to you he is on his own. Once you get together it is good to get it right but he really needs to announce it. 

[GreyhoundAggie]

Thanks Mike. That was my only regret. We should have called both coaches in, and explained the ruling. But I am not sure he could have explained it, because my partner didn't believe he was wrong.

 

Gotta love the weirdness you see in JV.

[MidAmUmp]

Okay...I'm deleting my first post because I misread that you were working the plate.  I thought you were working the bases.  My bad...............

 

I would say your partner overstepped his bounds on the 1st call.  I would probably have called the coach off, sent him back to the dugout and told him you guys were going to get together.  We would have huddled and found out what he called and I would have changed the call unless he had something really freakin' good.

 

On the 2nd call, I don't know if I would have called obstruction.  I would have had to have been there to see, but I do think you're going off some assumptions as to why the runner slowed down, stopped and retreated back to 3rd.  I know the letter of the law, but I also know common sense and fair play.  I'm going to allow the catcher a spot if the ball is almost to him.  Others will disagree with me and insist that he have the ball in his possession before blocking the plate.  I see their point, just don't always agree that it's that black and white.

[mstaylor]

Yeah, I thought about that when I said it. If doesn't believe he is wrong then his explanation is going to be ugly. I'm sure this story is here somewhere but I had a PU try to send a runner back on a foul tip. I called him out in front of the plate, discussed it and we left him there. The defensive manager asked why he was still there, the PU says,"I don't know, ask Mike, he made the call."   

[Mike Prince]

OP said he had the "pot" for the game, I am assuming that is the plate.  If not then I won't make sense (or will make less than no sense )

 

As PU, I can't see how the running lane call is not yours.  He stepped in on you and made your call.

 

However, even though it should be your call I would have left things alone and let him own it, staying out of things until he requests my involvement.  Creeping around his conversation will only pull you into it (and it did).  I would have told the coach he can't come to you on a call you didn't make - I would have returned to the plate and given the "I have info" sign if he happens to look your way, perhaps be more forceful if the coach starts talking protest (pregame should cover you getting together if there is a protest situation).

 

Cover in post-game with your partner the proper mechanic and correct rule, at a minimum that play must be discussed.  What did he say in post-game about it (I don't see any mention of that) - even though he had the rule wrong, I'd imagine he'd let you know he wasn't happy about the over-rule.  This is why postgame is so important - without some communication he easily could call the assignor on his way home complaining about you, not even mentioning his mistake that caused the whole thing.  This can be very damaging to an umpire trying to build his reputation in a new association.  You refer to him as a veteran, so I am making an assumption that you are new to the association.

 

So long post for a short answer.  Did you get the rule correct?  Yes.  Were you wrong to step in?  I also say yes (I would have waited to see if it escalated), but others will say no, you did the right thing.

[GreyhoundAggie]

OP said he had the "pot" for the game, I am assuming that is the plate.  If not then I won't make sense (or will make less than no sense )

 

As PU, I can't see how the running lane call is not yours.  He stepped in on you and made your call.

 

However, even though it should be your call I would have left things alone and let him own it, staying out of things until he requests my involvement.  Creeping around his conversation will only pull you into it (and it did).  I would have told the coach he can't come to you on a call you didn't make - I would have returned to the plate and given the "I have info" sign if he happens to look your way, perhaps be more forceful if the coach starts talking protest (pregame should cover you getting together if there is a protest situation).

 

Cover in post-game with your partner the proper mechanic and correct rule, at a minimum that play must be discussed.  What did he say in post-game about it (I don't see any mention of that) - even though he had the rule wrong, I'd imagine he'd let you know he wasn't happy about the over-rule.  This is why postgame is so important - without some communication he easily could call the assignor on his way home complaining about you, not even mentioning his mistake that caused the whole thing.  This can be very damaging to an umpire trying to build his reputation in a new association.  You refer to him as a veteran, so I am making an assumption that you are new to the association.

 

So long post for a short answer.  Did you get the rule correct?  Yes.  Were you wrong to step in?  I also say yes (I would have waited to see if it escalated), but others will say no, you did the right thing.

 

Yes, I had the plate. A lot of guys call it the pot.

 

The running lane violation would definitely be my call normally, and I had no violation, so there was no call. I crept to within earshot as we have been told to do when there is a heated argument with a coach. And normally I would let my partner own a call, but I didn't feel I could when it is a rules interpretation versus a judgment call. He wasn't coming to me no matter what, so I had to step in.

 

There are no protests in Texas of high school ball. It will be resolved on the field. They can't play a game under protest and submit it after the game.

 

I discussed it with my partner post-game. He didn't act very upset or anything, but he insisted his interpretation is correct, and that "you won't find it in the rule book that way". If he did call the assigner, I'm sure the assigner would have called me afterwards to discuss the call. They are pretty on top of that stuff.

 

I appreciate your feedback. 99% of the time I will not go anywhere near the conversation, and I let my partner handle it, but I have been trained and told to get it right, especially on a rules issue.

Okay...I'm deleting my first post because I misread that you were working the plate.  I thought you were working the bases.  My bad...............

 

I would say your partner overstepped his bounds on the 1st call.  I would probably have called the coach off, sent him back to the dugout and told him you guys were going to get together.  We would have huddled and found out what he called and I would have changed the call unless he had something really freakin' good.

 

On the 2nd call, I don't know if I would have called obstruction.  I would have had to have been there to see, but I do think you're going off some assumptions as to why the runner slowed down, stopped and retreated back to 3rd.  I know the letter of the law, but I also know common sense and fair play.  I'm going to allow the catcher a spot if the ball is almost to him.  Others will disagree with me and insist that he have the ball in his possession before blocking the plate.  I see their point, just don't always agree that it's that black and white.

I agree on the 2nd call. It is definitely a HTBT. It was definitely not a cut and dry case of obstruction. It could have for sure been a nothing call. I just wanted to get some other people's view on it. Thanks for chiming in.

[carolinablue]

Well, if you move the runner back to say 8 to 10 feet from the play when he slams on the brakes, would you still have OBS? My point being that just because F2 is blocking without possesion doesn't necessarily mean OBS. I think in this case you need to judge what R3 was doing. Was he trying to score and was hindered and trying to avoid a collision or was he attempting to retreat because he knew he was dead. I think you could make a case either way. You certainly didn't kick the call.

[GreyhoundAggie]

yeah carolina, it was basically a borderline call like that. I felt if the catcher was not in the basepath when he dropped the ball, R3 could have scored. Therefore I scored him.

It was definitely a screwy play.

[TNCoach]

I had a player strike out on a ball in the dirt the other night. As he took off for 1B, I heard the F2 shout outside. My player kind of did a banana turn out into the outside running lane. The ball sailed right by his head for the out.

 

He came back to the dugout, came up to me and told me what he did. I actually was surprised that he even thought that up.