An Old Trick.... a New Balk?

[Richvee]

Response from the Babe Ruth League:

 

"Our rule books were printed before the MLB instituted this new rule. Therefore, it will not be reflected in our rule books. While leagues can adopt the new rule for local league play, that will be on a per-league basis. The new rule will not be enforced in tournament play for the 2013 season.

The rule will very likely be added to the rule books for the 2014 season."

It's starting to look like this is going to have to be discussed at the pregame for most travel leagues. Just to avoid the arguments.  

[Richvee]

 can not wait till it happens in first high school game and the fans and maybe evena coach yells balk. 

Fans have been screaming "balk" on this move forever...so no change there

[CricketChapman]

Response from the Babe Ruth League:

 

"Our rule books were printed before the MLB instituted this new rule. Therefore, it will not be reflected in our rule books. While leagues can adopt the new rule for local league play, that will be on a per-league basis. The new rule will not be enforced in tournament play for the 2013 season.

The rule will very likely be added to the rule books for the 2014 season."

Hmm...

Well, this does more harm than good.  Has the pitcher-going-to-mouth rule finally been changed in this year's CR/BR?  It went into effect in 2011 and was still not updated last year.  Also, I do not know how old the change to the rule permitting the runner to retain the right to his base if not forced (Cannot find it right now), but it is still incorrect in the CR/BR.

 

I serve on the Board of Directors of the BR league I umpire in.  I will make sure this rule is implemented locally even if BR does not formally recognize it.

[guitarplaya2007]

 

 

Ok, how does this one come out? R1,R3 F1 feints to third and the throws the ball past F3, a)ball stays in play, b) ball goes into dbt? Larry Sansevere Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I am assuming you are describing a third-to-first manuever.  Well, balk for feint to third.  In FED, immediate dead ball; R1 goes to 2B and R3 scores.

In OBR, you probably want to withhold calling "Time" until play is over.  If ball goes into d.b.t., two bases from time of throw - R1 goes to 3B, R3 scores; disregard the balk as every baserunner reached the next base safely on the errant throw.

--------------------------

The new rule would only apply to OBR, not FED... at least not yet.

 

BUT, in the penalty for a balk, it says that "each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk." So in the instance Larry has above, since the batter didn't advance safely, it would be R1 to 2B and score R3. Right? 

 

If the pitcher steps off the rubber, feints to third and throws it into DBT somewhere, then I would have R1 going to 3B, and R3 scores. 

 

Correct

 

To put it simply:

 

FED awards bases if it goes into DBT

 

OBR - Balk

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

[Jocko]

Fed - F1 steps to 3B, fails to throw (Balk) then airmails it into DBT throwing to F3, R3 scores and R1 to 2B. Balk kills the ball.

Of course, this would only be true IF the feint to 3B were a balk, which it isn't.

OBR - I agree with our resident PBUC representative.

[guitarplaya2007]

Fed - F1 steps to 3B, fails to throw (Balk) then airmails it into DBT throwing to F3, R3 scores and R1 to 2B. Balk kills the ball.

Of course, this would only be true IF the feint to 3B were a balk, which it isn't.

OBR - I agree with our resident PBUC representative.

come on jocko, that's not cool, but ya i forgot to throw in the fed interp on there... i've had obr drilled in my head for 5 weeks straight fed has kind of slipped to the back of my mind... i better get a refresher on em though...

[Jocko]

Fed - F1 steps to 3B, fails to throw (Balk) then airmails it into DBT throwing to F3, R3 scores and R1 to 2B. Balk kills the ball.Of course, this would only be true IF the feint to 3B were a balk, which it isn't.OBR - I agree with our resident PBUC representative.

come on jocko, that's not cool, but ya i forgot to throw in the fed interp on there... i've had obr drilled in my head for 5 weeks straight fed has kind of slipped to the back of my mind... i better get a refresher on em though...No offense intended. Since a majority of us call HS ball, I was reminding others about the proper base awards. BTW, good luck at PBUC Evals! Hope your dreams come true!

[guitarplaya2007]

 

Fed - F1 steps to 3B, fails to throw (Balk) then airmails it into DBT throwing to F3, R3 scores and R1 to 2B. Balk kills the ball.Of course, this would only be true IF the feint to 3B were a balk, which it isn't.OBR - I agree with our resident PBUC representative.

come on jocko, that's not cool, but ya i forgot to throw in the fed interp on there... i've had obr drilled in my head for 5 weeks straight fed has kind of slipped to the back of my mind... i better get a refresher on em though... No offense intended. Since a majority of us call HS ball, I was reminding others about the proper base awards. BTW, good luck at PBUC Evals! Hope your dreams come true!

Thanks a lot jocko

[CricketChapman]

 

 

 

I am assuming you are describing a third-to-first manuever.  Well, balk for feint to third.  In FED, immediate dead ball; R1 goes to 2B and R3 scores.

In OBR, you probably want to withhold calling "Time" until play is over.  If ball goes into d.b.t., two bases from time of throw - R1 goes to 3B, R3 scores; disregard the balk as every baserunner reached the next base safely on the errant throw.

--------------------------

The new rule would only apply to OBR, not FED... at least not yet.

 

BUT, in the penalty for a balk, it says that "each runner shall advance one base without liability to be put out, unless the batter reaches first on a hit, an error, a base on balls, a hit batter, or otherwise, and all other runners advance at least one base, in which case the play proceeds without reference to the balk." So in the instance Larry has above, since the batter didn't advance safely, it would be R1 to 2B and score R3. Right? 

 

If the pitcher steps off the rubber, feints to third and throws it into DBT somewhere, then I would have R1 going to 3B, and R3 scores. 

 

Correct

 

To put it simply:

 

FED awards bases if it goes into DBT

 

OBR - Balk

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

I hate to quote five different posts, but just for clarification:  do you agree with my original answer?

[Replacematt]

 

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

This is wrong in a few ways.

1. A throw from the rubber is one base. This is irrelevant, because

2. An illegal feint from the rubber is an immediate dead ball.

[CricketChapman]

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

This is wrong in a few ways.

1. A throw from the rubber is one base. This is irrelevant, because

2. An illegal feint from the rubber is an immediate dead ball.

The move described was not a throw from the rubber, it was a third-to-first; why is the feint an immediate dead ball?

[Replacematt]

 

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

This is wrong in a few ways.

1. A throw from the rubber is one base. This is irrelevant, because

2. An illegal feint from the rubber is an immediate dead ball.

The move described was not a throw from the rubber, it was a third-to-first; why is the feint an immediate dead ball?I was addressing the first sentence in the post I quoted, which was a throw.

Feints are immediately dead because they are neither throws nor pitches. The ball remains live on a balk only if the balk occurs during a throw or pitch.

[Jocko]

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

This is wrong in a few ways.1. A throw from the rubber is one base. This is irrelevant, because2. An illegal feint from the rubber is an immediate dead ball.The move described was not a throw from the rubber, it was a third-to-first; why is the feint an immediate dead ball?I agree the ball becomes dead, but not by rule. F1 feints, we holler balk. Everyone freezes looking at us. Now we call time and award bases, since playing action has ceased. Not a hair worth splitting, but the result will be the same. Assuming we're not talking Fed, that is.

[CricketChapman]

I agree the ball becomes dead, but not by rule. F1 feints, we holler balk. Everyone freezes looking at us. Now we call time and award bases, since playing action has ceased. Not a hair worth splitting, but the result will be the same. Assuming we're not talking Fed, that is.

So, assuming the pitcher does not freeze on the call of "Balk," and immediately turns and throws the ball away, you would let play continue?

In other words, I don't see how/why anyone calling an OBR game would call "Time" if this happened.  In reality, Jocko is right - everyone will freeze up and then you can easily stop play and enforce the balk.  But I just want to be covered for the one time that does not happen.

[NFUA_44]

I agree the ball becomes dead, but not by rule. F1 feints, we holler balk. Everyone freezes looking at us. Now we call time and award bases, since playing action has ceased. Not a hair worth splitting, but the result will be the same. Assuming we're not talking Fed, that is.

So, assuming the pitcher does not freeze on the call of "Balk," and immediately turns and throws the ball away, you would let play continue?

In other words, I don't see how/why anyone calling an OBR game would call "Time" if this happened.  In reality, Jocko is right - everyone will freeze up and then you can easily stop play and enforce the balk.  But I just want to be covered for the one time that does not happen.

The ball is dead because you can't meet the conditions to ignore the balk.  In order for OOP awards to come into play you would have to ignore the balk.  That can't be done since there was no pitch to the batter, thus he can not advance a base, and negate the balk.

 

Call the balk, watch the throw from F1 go OOP, enforce the balk.  Throw in your "time" mechanic and move to your new position if necessary.

[RC@54OUTS]

Spoke with a buddy that just got back from TUS. OBR has it as a balk but will not enforce it until it is in the rule book. So probably not this year per my friend. PBUC isn't calling it a balk.

[krwill96]

The new book will be out shortly which will most likely include the feint to third a balk.

The reason why pbuc taught us its not a balk yet is because its not printed in the book. They said that they have seen in the past that rules were rejected at the last minute and not put into the book for one reason or another. Therefore the staff said if its not in the book, even if its been passed through the right channels its still illegal as far as they are concerned.

[guitarplaya2007]

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

This is wrong in a few ways.

1. A throw from the rubber is one base. This is irrelevant, because

2. An illegal feint from the rubber is an immediate dead ball.

 

Ok

1.) The 2 base award is assuming the pitcher did a complete 3rd to first move and for whatever reason we as umpires have a brain fart making the call immediately and don't make him fall on his face by us calling balk

2.) An illegal feint from the rubber is NOT an immediate dead ball, let's say F1 double clutches to first because the first baseman is playing his position and not holding the runner on, then the pitcher throws the ball away. You have to wait to kill the ball until all playing action ceases (in OBR, I need to make that point clear) because runners may advance beyond their award at their own peril. The rule book does not specify that in a step balk or no stop balk you wait to kill it and on a feint you kill it immediately, yes sure if you can stop the pitcher from throwing the ball with your initial call of balk by all means do so, it makes our job 100 times easier, but there are some times you can't stop them by saying balk this is where you have to let all playing action cease before killing the ball.

[Replacematt]

 

Incorrect, if the pitcher would throw the ball into dead ball territory and balk you would still award 2 bases time of the throw, because it does read that runners may advance beyond their award on a balk. For example R1 R3 say the pitcher double clutches after stepping to third then throws to third, you now have a balk and the pitcher throws the ball and it gets away from the fielder, R3 advances home safely and R1 attempts to advance to third being put out at third base the out would stand. Same thing as if the pitcher were to throw the ball out of play on a 3rd to first move, step to third fail to throw, you say that's a balk, he then turns and throws the ball into the stands attempting to retire R1, award would be R3 score, R1 3rd base. Be sure to read the comments in OBR they are more than just case plays there are actually approved rulings there too.

This is wrong in a few ways.

1. A throw from the rubber is one base. This is irrelevant, because

2. An illegal feint from the rubber is an immediate dead ball.

 

Ok

1.) The 2 base award is assuming the pitcher did a complete 3rd to first move and for whatever reason we as umpires have a brain fart making the call immediately and don't make him fall on his face by us calling balk

2.) An illegal feint from the rubber is NOT an immediate dead ball, let's say F1 double clutches to first because the first baseman is playing his position and not holding the runner on, then the pitcher throws the ball away. You have to wait to kill the ball until all playing action ceases (in OBR, I need to make that point clear) because runners may advance beyond their award at their own peril. The rule book does not specify that in a step balk or no stop balk you wait to kill it and on a feint you kill it immediately, yes sure if you can stop the pitcher from throwing the ball with your initial call of balk by all means do so, it makes our job 100 times easier, but there are some times you can't stop them by saying balk this is where you have to let all playing action cease before killing the ball.

 

Look at MLBUM 7.9(1). If a pitcher balks and does not throw, call time immediately.

 

A feint, by definition, does not have a throw.

[guitarplaya2007]

yes if they baclk and do not throw, but we know that the pitcher stepping to first and "double clutching" before throwing is a balk but we can't kill it before he throws the ball, the mechanic is "That's a balk!" then wait for playing action to stop (the pitcher not throwing the ball would be when all playing action has stopped) or wait to see if all runners including the batter runner do not advance a base safely, THEN say "TIME!" and award the balk. I agree you should kill it as soon as possible to prevent the inevitable "$h!t shows" that follow, but you have to allow the opportunity for runners to advance beyond their awards, especially in overthrow situations. Let me give you an example, R1 R3 (under 2013 obr assuming) pitcher steps towards third and realizing the third baseman is not covering hesitates in throwing to third, at this point you would say "That's a balk" and then immediately after hesitating he throws the ball and it glances off the fence behind 3rd and rolls into left field R3 scores easily on the play and R1 attempting to advance the third is thrown out at third. The out stands, the balk WAS for the feint to third but the throw was released. I understand this rarely happens, usually the pitcher just holds onto the ball or falls on his face when he realizes no one is covering, but this situation does happen and you have to be prepared for when it happens.  

[NFUA_44]

yes if they baclk and do not throw, but we know that the pitcher stepping to first and "double clutching" before throwing is a balk but we can't kill it before he throws the ball, the mechanic is "That's a balk!" then wait for playing action to stop (the pitcher not throwing the ball would be when all playing action has stopped) or wait to see if all runners including the batter runner do not advance a base safely, THEN say "TIME!" and award the balk. I agree you should kill it as soon as possible to prevent the inevitable "$h!t shows" that follow, but you have to allow the opportunity for runners to advance beyond their awards, especially in overthrow situations. Let me give you an example, R1 R3 (under 2013 obr assuming) pitcher steps towards third and realizing the third baseman is not covering hesitates in throwing to third, at this point you would say "That's a balk" and then immediately after hesitating he throws the ball and it glances off the fence behind 3rd and rolls into left field R3 scores easily on the play and R1 attempting to advance the third is thrown out at third. The out stands, the balk WAS for the feint to third but the throw was released. I understand this rarely happens, usually the pitcher just holds onto the ball or falls on his face when he realizes no one is covering, but this situation does happen and you have to be prepared for when it happens.

This makes sense but maybe I'm missing something. We call the balk and allow everything to develop which sounds practical, but there was no pitch so the batter can't advance a base which would mean the balk can't be disregarded, so how am I explaining that the out at third still stands? Help me understand it, because I see the reasoning in letting it all play out but the sh!tstorm could be avoided if the "out" doesn't happen.

[Rich Ives]

yes if they baclk and do not throw, but we know that the pitcher stepping to first and "double clutching" before throwing is a balk but we can't kill it before he throws the ball, the mechanic is "That's a balk!" then wait for playing action to stop (the pitcher not throwing the ball would be when all playing action has stopped) or wait to see if all runners including the batter runner do not advance a base safely, THEN say "TIME!" and award the balk. I agree you should kill it as soon as possible to prevent the inevitable "$h!t shows" that follow, but you have to allow the opportunity for runners to advance beyond their awards, especially in overthrow situations. Let me give you an example, R1 R3 (under 2013 obr assuming) pitcher steps towards third and realizing the third baseman is not covering hesitates in throwing to third, at this point you would say "That's a balk" and then immediately after hesitating he throws the ball and it glances off the fence behind 3rd and rolls into left field R3 scores easily on the play and R1 attempting to advance the third is thrown out at third. The out stands, the balk WAS for the feint to third but the throw was released. I understand this rarely happens, usually the pitcher just holds onto the ball or falls on his face when he realizes no one is covering, but this situation does happen and you have to be prepared for when it happens.

This makes sense but maybe I'm missing something. We call the balk and allow everything to develop which sounds practical, but there was no pitch so the batter can't advance a base which would mean the balk can't be disregarded, so how am I explaining that the out at third still stands? Help me understand it, because I see the reasoning in letting it all play out but the sh!tstorm could be avoided if the "out" doesn't happen.

 

 

Like this.

 

8.05(m) APPROVED RULING: In cases where a pitcher balks and throws wild, either to

a base or to home plate, a runner or runners may advance beyond the base to which

he is entitled at his own risk.

[UmpTTS43]

If a pitcher makes an illegal feign you kill it immediately. You do not allow a subsequent attempt or throw. When F1 aborts his attempt that play is now over.

[noumpere]

yes if they baclk and do not throw, but we know that the pitcher stepping to first and "double clutching" before throwing is a balk but we can't kill it before he throws the ball, the mechanic is "That's a balk!" then wait for playing action to stop (the pitcher not throwing the ball would be when all playing action has stopped) or wait to see if all runners including the batter runner do not advance a base safely, THEN say "TIME!" and award the balk. I agree you should kill it as soon as possible to prevent the inevitable "$h!t shows" that follow, but you have to allow the opportunity for runners to advance beyond their awards, especially in overthrow situations. Let me give you an example, R1 R3 (under 2013 obr assuming) pitcher steps towards third and realizing the third baseman is not covering hesitates in throwing to third, at this point you would say "That's a balk" and then immediately after hesitating he throws the ball and it glances off the fence behind 3rd and rolls into left field R3 scores easily on the play and R1 attempting to advance the third is thrown out at third. The out stands, the balk WAS for the feint to third but the throw was released. I understand this rarely happens, usually the pitcher just holds onto the ball or falls on his face when he realizes no one is covering, but this situation does happen and you have to be prepared for when it happens.  

-1 as described by others.

 

Even if you dont get the words out of your mouth before the throw the ball was still dead at the time of the feint.

 

Now, if the pitcher threw toward third without stepping there, then it would be a balk and the ball would remain alive and rule accordingly.

[cyclonehokiece]

Well, USSSA published it a a balk, but I do not like their wording, cause it limits it to a RHP faking to third followed by a fake or throw to first.  I can see the arguments right now.......