An Old Trick.... a New Balk?

[SnareDrum]

I've heard the rumblings for a couple of years now, and it looks like they may finally do it. 

 

"The fake-to-third, throw-to-first pickoff move now would be considered a balk. Baseball's Playing Rules Committee voted last year to outlaw the trick move, but the union vetoed that change temporarily, pending further discussion. MLB has the ability to implement that change unilaterally for this season, but is hopeful the players will agree to the new rule so it can be implemented jointly, sources said." (via ESPN)

 

I'm sure there's more coming on this, and since a lot of the games I work use OBR, I hope they make the change very soon. 

 

Article ---> Interpreters able to approach mound to help foreign-born pitchers, sources say - ESPN

[BRUMP]

This is ridiculous.

[BT_Blue]

Totally forgot about this. Wonder if Little League, Babe Ruth, etc. will follow and pick up this rule.

[semper_fi_72]

Still nothing new.

It is still out there.

Until a rule is put in place, I don't worry about the rumors or anything else.

Like any other rule set.  They implement the rule then I worry about enforcing it.

Until then.....PLAY!!!!!!!!

[SnareDrum]

They usually have any new rules in place by early February so they can have it all set and in print by MLB Spring training. I like being aware of major changes being discussed, especially ones that have made it this far and could happen this soon. If it goes into OBR 2013, it will have an effect on a LOT of leagues that use OBR that very day. If it does, I'll enforce it. If not, no worries. 

[johnnyg08]

I wonder what they're teaching at the two umpire schools this year with regard to this??

[BT_Blue]

I wonder what they're teaching at the two umpire schools this year with regard to this??

Have a friend of mine that is currently attending The Umpire School. Will let you know what he says. Also heard that they are saying the third-to-first without a throw is a balk, but if they throw to first all is good.

[SnareDrum]

Very interesting poll results...

 

What do you make of a potential rule change that would make the fake-to-third, throw-to-first pickoff move a balk? - Sportsnation - ESPN

[Richvee]

Totally forgot about this. Wonder if Little League, Babe Ruth, etc. will follow and pick up this rule.

I wouldn't count on Little league changing. Heck, they they still have a pitcher going to his mouth on the dirt part  of the mound illegal while everyone else has gone with off the rubber with a wipe is OK. 

[Jocko]

Totally forgot about this. Wonder if Little League, Babe Ruth, etc. will follow and pick up this rule.

I wouldn't count on Little league changing. Heck, they they still have a pitcher going to his mouth on the dirt part  of the mound illegal while everyone else has gone with off the rubber with a wipe is OK. 

as long as he's not getting signs from bucket butt :wave:

[Richvee]

Funny all the talk about this "new rule"...Yet no one is able to say just WHAT the rule will be? Will it be a feint to 3rd is going to be illegal just like a feint to 1st from the rubber? Will it be OK to fake to 3rd as long as you don't follow it with a fake to 1st?

 

Short of making any feint to 3rd from the rubber illegal, I don't see an easy rule fix....Well, "fix" might not be the right word, since nothing's broken as far as I can tell.

[SnareDrum]

Funny all the talk about this "new rule"...Yet no one is able to say just WHAT the rule will be? Will it be a feint to 3rd is going to be illegal just like a feint to 1st from the rubber? Will it be OK to fake to 3rd as long as you don't follow it with a fake to 1st?

 

Short of making any feint to 3rd from the rubber illegal, I don't see an easy rule fix....Well, "fix" might not be the right word, since nothing's broken as far as I can tell.

----------------------

It could just be some sort of "trial baloon" to gauge response before they make a final decision or hammer out the wording that covers the move. Or maybe even as a way to get the news spreading before they do.

It'd have to (?) be something that would cover the move like "It is a balk when... The pitcher, while touching his plate, feints a throw to first base or third base and fails to complete the throw." I guess we'll know for sure within the next 2-3 weeks.

[SnareDrum]

If you need a break from poring over rule books today, this could either get a grin or a head shake (or both) out of some of you... especially the breaking down of the steps of the FTTTTF.

 

Baseball Prospectus | Overthinking It: A Fond Farewell to the Fake to Third

[Jocko]

Why not change the wording to unilaterally coaver a feints from the rubber? No fakes anywhere without 1st disengaging. Seems simple enough to me.

[JaxRolo]

If you need a break from poring over rule books today, this could either get a grin or a head shake (or both) out of some of you... especially the breaking down of the steps of the FTTTTF.

 

Baseball Prospectus | Overthinking It: A Fond Farewell to the Fake to Third

 

 

Maybe its just me but on all those videos it looks like F1 steps towards home and not third!

[semper_fi_72]

Totally forgot about this. Wonder if Little League, Babe Ruth, etc. will follow and pick up this rule.

 

The major portion of Little League doesn't even have Balks.

You only have Balks at the new 50/70 and above programs.

[Richvee]

Totally forgot about this. Wonder if Little League, Babe Ruth, etc. will follow and pick up this rule.

 

The major portion of Little League doesn't even have Balks.

You only have Balks at the new 50/70 and above programs.

Still, there's plenty of young high school kids that are confused enough already. Their travel coach tells him to take a wind up position, step and throw to 1st. He does it, it works. He tries it again in a little league Jr's game. It works. He goes out his Sophomore year and starts his 1st JV game, and BANG! He gets hit with a Balk call! So, now we'll have a bunch of travel, Babe Ruth, etc. leagues trying to figure out if 1st to 3d is legal or not also. 

 

Not just a nightmare for us. But no fun for these young pitchers trying to learn how to pitch. 

[basejester]

Why not change the wording to unilaterally coaver a feints from the rubber? No fakes anywhere without 1st disengaging. Seems simple enough to me.

^^^ This. So much this.

Simpler is better. Keep it simple unless there's a compelling reason to make it complex.

[Richvee]

Why not change the wording to unilaterally coaver a feints from the rubber? No fakes anywhere without 1st disengaging. Seems simple enough to me.

^^^ This. So much this.

Simpler is better. Keep it simple unless there's a compelling reason to make it complex.

My thoughts are keep 2nd base out of this. No feints to 1st or 3rd from the rubber. 

[basejester]

My thoughts are keep 2nd base out of this. No feints to 1st or 3rd from the rubber. 

Why?

[Richvee]

My thoughts are keep 2nd base out of this. No feints to 1st or 3rd from the rubber. 

Why?

Well, because I don't think there's any problem with the rules regarding pick offs to 2nd. Actually, I don't think there's any problem with the rule as it stands now, but if they want to eliminate 1st to 3rd, not allowing a feint from the rubber to either of the corner bases seems the most logical, straight forward, easiest to implement answer. It's the 1st to 3rd move they're trying to eliminate. Why change any other rules about pickoff attempts @2nd? 

[basejester]

Well, because I don't think there's any problem with the rules regarding pick offs to 2nd. Actually, I don't think there's any problem with the rule as it stands now, but if they want to eliminate 1st to 3rd, not allowing a feint from the rubber to either of the corner bases seems the most logical, straight forward, easiest to implement answer. It's the 1st to 3rd move they're trying to eliminate. Why change any other rules about pickoff attempts @2nd? 

I think/hope what they're trying to eliminate is confusion. You know how half the stadium yells, "Balk!" when a pitcher does the feint to third and then feint first move? We're probably never going to get smarter fans, but we might make easier rules.

Why is first base special? Eliminate feints to all the bases or allow it to all the bases.

[Richvee]

Well, because I don't think there's any problem with the rules regarding pick offs to 2nd. Actually, I don't think there's any problem with the rule as it stands now, but if they want to eliminate 1st to 3rd, not allowing a feint from the rubber to either of the corner bases seems the most logical, straight forward, easiest to implement answer. It's the 1st to 3rd move they're trying to eliminate. Why change any other rules about pickoff attempts @2nd? 

I think/hope what they're trying to eliminate is confusion. You know how half the stadium yells, "Balk!" when a pitcher does the feint to third and then feint first move? We're probably never going to get smarter fans, but we might make easier rule.

Why is first base special? Eliminate feints to all the bases or allow it to all the bases.

I guess it's easier to to say no feints from the rubber, period. I just think you're changing more rules than need be to get the play you want eliminated. My point is why change anything regarding 2nd base? That would have nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish through a rule change.  

[kwiggie]

My 2 cents on the rule as it is now (for what it is worth)

 

1. Is the 3rd to 1st fakethrow annoying... Sure it can be, but should rules be changed based on this?

2. Does it ever work? I have personally seen it work to some degree only several times @ the HSMens' League level over the course of the last 9 years.

3. Is it mechanically a legal move? yes

4. Is it by definition decieving the runner (I have debated this arguement with playersskippers over the seasons)? IMO, No... everyone in the stadiumpark coaches and players included is watching F1 make a move to third, disengage, etc. etc. become a fielder, etc.etc...

5. With that said is there an unfair advantage? No

6. Is there a saftey issue? No

 

What is the difference between a fake to 3rd followed by a fake to 1st or 2nd?

What is the difference between a fake to 2nd followed by a fake to 1st or 3rd? 

 

My 2 cents on a can of worms being opend up if the rule is changed

 

Situation 1: B1B3, F1 makes a move (faked) to 3rd... F1 takes a step or two towards 3rd and then wheels around to make a fake throw towards 1st... Balk?

 

Situation 2: What about a delayed steal by B1 afterduring a fake throw on B3 by F1? Is F1 now required to throw the ball to 2nd or 1st to avoid a balk? F1 can run at B1 right? So as a "Fielder" i assume (with the rule change) he now has only 2 options, run at B1 or throw to a base to avoid a balk.

 

Will the MLBOBR impliment a distance rule that says F1 becomes a "True" fielder after achieving a distance of 5ft. or greater (completely an arbitrary distance) from the rubber gaining all rights the fielders have. With that said, during such a situation is F1 given protection on overthrows as-if he has made a move from the rubber while within 5ft. of the rubber (I can see ump-attire coming out with the "Ump's-Tape-Measure-Buddy" 2014).

 

What if you can fake a throw to any base: This can already be done simply by stepping off before faking to first, and let's face it... if F1 is doing this he really isn't concerned with B1, he is just checking down because F2 told him to. If him and F2 are trying to put B1 in the dirt a couple of times because they just plunked him in the thigh for strutting around the bases after going yard last time at bat then yes you must throw the ball F1... just dont throw it hard and that will make B1's "tender thigh" feel even worse when the 1st base coach tells him "Hey, they are just f+@%ing with you!" ... point made.

 

What if you can't fake a throw to any base: Well if I was a youth coach playing under OBR rules my runners would have a green light on any base anytime a move was made by F1.

Situation:B2B3, F1 makes a move on B2 who I have coached to take an exagerated lead... "and B3 is off!" I will take my chances that the defense can not recieve, set up, and mechanically make one of the longest throws on the diamond before B3 hits the plate.

 

By comparison: I was watching a NFL game 4 or 5 weeks ago were Jon Gruden was calling color commentary. The game came down to a field goal attempt with only several seconds on the clock... last play of the game at a manegable distance. Just prior to the snap the defensive coach calls a time-out, the snap fires and the kicker takes his "now" practice attempt. Gruden goes off, "That is just silly, I dont know why coaches do this in this day and age! It is such an old trick that doesnt work anyways, just let the kicker get in there in the heat of the moment and do his job... win or loose a last minute time out is simply anti-climatic, and not good for the game, I think there should be a rule against these "Last minute time-outs!" Of course for the record this is not a quote, just a summary as I remeber it, but I do know the last line to be accurate to the best of my memory.

 

After Gruden's little rant I was bent out of shape (not sure why I took it so personal)... but it was after all a football game (that didnt involve the Pack) so I wasnt too hung up on it and forgot about it until now.

 

After hearing on the radio the other morning about the MLB's potential decision regarding the classic 3B1B move I thought of Gruden's rant and why I disagreed with his premise.

 

Is it prudent to have nothing but rules with absolute purpoes is major sports? Must everything be so black and white? Is there no room for savy and nuance anymore? Is a football coaches time-out just prior to a last minute game winning field goal in an attempt to freeze a kicker an ancient tactic should it be banned? How about a basketball's coach time out prior to an improtant free-throw to freeze a shooter should it be banned? Baseball at any level is unlike either of the previous two sports in that the game is not so black and white. Unlike any other sport baseball gains its popularity because the old traditions (legal or not) are being taught by the Elders to the Rooks'. The Vets teach the Rooks' about messing with opposing players, teams, and how to get away with it... without being caught by us! Yet in the same sense we all get together as offiicials and teach each other how to not get dupped by what the Vet's are teaching the Rook's, it is like an "Arm's Race" for those of us who grew up during the cold war erea.

 

MLB needs to let this be, the 1st to 3rd move is out-dated, and uneffective for the most part. So is the time out prior to a game winning kick in the NFL, should it be done away with... no! Sports is not about theatrics, these are not thesbians on the field performing a classic Greek tragety for your entertainment. It is a game, with all the highs ans lows that come with it, that is why we watch, play, and officiate!

 

Side note: If you are looking for a great Thesbian experience pick up "Gangs of New York"  on dvd one of my favorites... funny but as a Sconi I actually understood all of the dialect of the actors...cant say the same for modern day EastCoasters... no offence Eastcoasters "Yah Der Hey!"

[basejester]

What if you can't fake a throw to any base: Well if I was a youth coach playing under OBR rules my runners would have a green light on any base anytime a move was made by F1.

Situation:B2B3, F1 makes a move on B2 who I have coached to take an exagerated lead... "and B3 is off!" I will take my chances that the defense can not recieve, set up, and mechanically make one of the longest throws on the diamond before B3 hits the plate.

Are you saying that pitchers need the ability to fake to second from the rubber to combat this?