Overrunning 1B on a walk

[grayhawk]

Can someone post the relevant text from either the BRD or MLBUM that deals with a BR overrunning 1B on a walk? It's not specified in the rule book, but I believe in OBR, he has to make a move to 2B to be in jeopardy of being tagged out. I believe Fed says he is in jeopardy of being put out if he overruns even if he makes no move to 2B. I'm at CDP and someone is trying to tell me otherwise and I don't have my materials here. Thanks!

[BretMan]

No materials here, either. But I can tell you that you have it right!

I believe that FED is the only one that places a batter-runner in jeopardy of being tagged out for overrunning first base on a walk- whether he made an attempt for second or not.

[Jocko]

The big ? is..... WTF is he doing overrunning 1b on a BB?

[basejester]

The big ? is..... WTF is he doing overrunning 1b on a BB?

The batter-runner is considering trying for second (ball loose, first & third, whatever), but decides at the last moment that even taking the turn puts him in danger.

[Jocko]

I just don't see any reason to "overrun." If he turns AT ALL, he's in jeopardy. I like the Fed rule here. No reason to protect him past the bag. Benefit of doubt to DT.

[Guest]

Scenario: 3-2 pitch with a half swing. PU rules no swing and does not immediately ask the appropriate BU. The ball gets away from F2 and the batter hustles to 1B just in case where he runs through the bag. If PU never appeals or BU rules "no swing", the batter has just overrun 1B on a walk.

As far as rule citations, this interpretation is one of the more literal ones- rules 7.08c and j, and 7.10c never stipulate when a batter-runner is NOT permitted to overrun 1B. Therefore, proceed as such so that any batter-runner who has overrun 1B, given they meet the criteria for returning to the base as described in the rules above, is not liable to be put out, irregardless of if this occurs courtesy of a batted ball, uncaught third strike, ball 4, etc.

[Richvee]

FED 8-2-7. A batter-runner who reaches first base safely and then overruns or overslides may immediately return without liability of being put out provided he does not attempt or feint an advance to second. A player who is awarded first base on a base on balls does not have this right.

[basejester]

I just don't see any reason to "overrun." If he turns AT ALL, he's in jeopardy.

That's why he overruns instead of turning AT ALL.

If he doesn't have the option of overrunning (as in Fed), then he needs to either slide or decide earlier -- early enough to stop standing up.

I have no beef with the way the Fed rule works, but the the runner has a motivation to overrun if the rules allow it.

[D62 blue]

Can someone post the relevant text from either the BRD or MLBUM that deals with a BR overrunning 1B on a walk? It's not specified in the rule book, but I believe in OBR, he has to make a move to 2B to be in jeopardy of being tagged out. I believe Fed says he is in jeopardy of being put out if he overruns even if he makes no move to 2B. I'm at CDP and someone is trying to tell me otherwise and I don't have my materials here. Thanks!

hi steve , in the RIM there is a reference to this in the instructor comments . however no rule states this is legal . i will find the rules section and post for you . the RIM is mostly OBR rules with some exceptions .

marc

[renegadewolf]

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when—

(a) Four “balls†have been called by the umpire;

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game. If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

Relevant?

[Rich Ives]

"Old" MLBUM 5.14

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(cee)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(jay), and 7.10(cee).)

LL RIM

It is acceptable for a batter-runner to overrun first base on a base on balls. He/she cannot be tagged out when overrunning first base unless he/she makes an effort to advance to second base or fails to return to first immediately.

People don't want it to be true because they rationalize that it isn't necessary, thus they conclude that it must not be legal. But there is no rule that makes an exception fot overrunning on a walk (other than FED) so it thus remains legal.

[grayhawk]

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when—

(a) Four “balls†have been called by the umpire;

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game. If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

Relevant?

No. That comment applies to the runners, not the batter runner.

[Jimurray]

"Old" MLBUM 5.14

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(cee)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(jay), and 7.10(cee).)

LL RIM

It is acceptable for a batter-runner to overrun first base on a base on balls. He/she cannot be tagged out when overrunning first base unless he/she makes an effort to advance to second base or fails to return to first immediately.

People don't want it to be true because they rationalize that it isn't necessary, thus they conclude that it must not be legal. But there is no rule that makes an exception fot overrunning on a walk (other than FED) so it thus remains legal.

Current PBUC says the same thing as Rich's old MLBUM. That should be good enough for whoever at CDP.

[Jocko]

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when—

(a) Four “balls†have been called by the umpire;

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game. If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

Relevant?

No. That comment applies to the runners, not the batter runner.

6.08 THE BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER

[Rich Ives]

6.08 The batter becomes a runner and is entitled to first base without liability to be put out (provided he advances to and touches first base) when—

(a) Four “balls†have been called by the umpire;

Rule 6.08(a) Comment: A batter who is entitled to first base because of a base on balls must go to first base and touch the base before other base runners are forced to advance. This applies when bases are full and applies when a substitute runner is put into the game. If, in advancing, the base runner thinks there is a play and he slides past the base before or after touching it he may be put out by the fielder tagging him. If he fails to touch the base to which he is entitled and attempts to advance beyond that base he may be put out by tagging him or the base he missed.

Relevant?

No. That comment applies to the runners, not the batter runner.

6.08 THE BATTER BECOMES A RUNNER

Nice try . . .

2.00

BATTER-RUNNER is a term that identifies the offensive player who has just

finished his time at bat until he is put out or until the play on which he became a runner

ends.

I put it back the way I entered it - whoever edited my post changed its meaning and probably violated a forum rule. The comment in 6.08 does NOT apply to the batter-runner. The batter-runner's liability is in 7.08.

[dumbdumb]

"Old" MLBUM 5.14

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(cee)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(jay), and 7.10(cee).)

LL RIM

It is acceptable for a batter-runner to overrun first base on a base on balls. He/she cannot be tagged out when overrunning first base unless he/she makes an effort to advance to second base or fails to return to first immediately.

People don't want it to be true because they rationalize that it isn't necessary, thus they conclude that it must not be legal. But there is no rule that makes an exception fot overrunning on a walk (other than FED) so it thus remains legal.

Can we assume "make an effort to advance" means he could turn left or right to immediately come back to the base just like on a batted ball, as long as he does not make an effort to advance.

[grayhawk]

"Old" MLBUM 5.14

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(cee)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(jay), and 7.10(cee).)

LL RIM

It is acceptable for a batter-runner to overrun first base on a base on balls. He/she cannot be tagged out when overrunning first base unless he/she makes an effort to advance to second base or fails to return to first immediately.

People don't want it to be true because they rationalize that it isn't necessary, thus they conclude that it must not be legal. But there is no rule that makes an exception fot overrunning on a walk (other than FED) so it thus remains legal.

Thanks Rich. That's perfect.

[Jocko]

"Old" MLBUM 5.14

NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(cee)(EXCEPTION), 7.08(jay), and 7.10(cee).)

LL RIM

It is acceptable for a batter-runner to overrun first base on a base on balls. He/she cannot be tagged out when overrunning first base unless he/she makes an effort to advance to second base or fails to return to first immediately.

People don't want it to be true because they rationalize that it isn't necessary, thus they conclude that it must not be legal. But there is no rule that makes an exception fot overrunning on a walk (other than FED) so it thus remains legal.

Can we assume "make an effort to advance" means he could turn left or right to immediately come back to the base just like on a batted ball, as long as he does not make an effort to advance.

I wouldn't give much leeway. There's absolutely no reason for him to turn either direction on a routine walk. If he turns in even a step (assuming he isn't sprinting through the cutout) and gets tagged, I'm banging the out. BOD to DT. Given the 3-2 count scenario, I'd treat that like a single. I'm imagining BR kinda trotting down to 1B, step on the bag w/o stopping, and turn inside a step or 2 past the bag.

[jjskitours]

My recollection for MLB is if batter-runner simply walks to 1st base and for some reason steps off or passes the bag he is subject to being tagged out.

However, if he "runs" through the bag for whatever reason he can return immediately without being at risk of being tagged out.

[SanDiegoSteve]

My recollection for MLB is if batter-runner simply walks to 1st base and for some reason steps off or passes the bag he is subject to being tagged out.

However, if he "runs" through the bag for whatever reason he can return immediately without being at risk of being tagged out.

No, he can walk past the base, run past the base, skip past the base...whatever he wants as long as he does not make an attempt at 2nd base, just like on any other time he goes to 1st. He can also turn left or right as long as he returns immediately to 1st base. Unless BR makes a definitive move toward 2nd base, he can overrun 1st in any fashion.

[Jocko]

My recollection for MLB is if batter-runner simply walks to 1st base and for some reason steps off or passes the bag he is subject to being tagged out.

However, if he "runs" through the bag for whatever reason he can return immediately without being at risk of being tagged out.

No, he can walk past the base, run past the base, skip past the base...whatever he wants as long as he does not make an attempt at 2nd base, just like on any other time he goes to 1st. He can also turn left or right as long as he returns immediately to 1st base. Unless BR makes a definitive move toward 2nd base, he can overrun 1st in any fashion.

I agree, but my definitive gets alot more broad. I think Fed got this one right. I never see it, since 99% of my games are NFHS

[renegadewolf]

[ The comment in 6.08 does NOT apply to the batter-runner. The batter-runner's liability is in 7.08.

Thank you for the clarification.

[noumpere]

My recollection for MLB is if batter-runner simply walks to 1st base and for some reason steps off or passes the bag he is subject to being tagged out.

However, if he "runs" through the bag for whatever reason he can return immediately without being at risk of being tagged out.

No, he can walk past the base, run past the base, skip past the base...whatever he wants as long as he does not make an attempt at 2nd base, just like on any other time he goes to 1st. He can also turn left or right as long as he returns immediately to 1st base. Unless BR makes a definitive move toward 2nd base, he can overrun 1st in any fashion.

I agree, but my definitive gets alot more broad. I think Fed got this one right. I never see it, since 99% of my games are NFHS

Use the same definition imo of course. And I'm sure that somewhere in the distant past that some HS coach had a batter run past first on a walk and the defense played on him and the runner from third scored. So to protect themselves against this type of play they put in the rule.

Now I for one would not enforce it on the 3-2 dropped ball checked swing scenario. It can be minimized of course if PU asks right away but Im still giving the runner the benefit of the doubt here. I think FED should put in an exception or a case for this, although it might not be worth it since it seems to happen a lot more on these discussion boards then on the field. lol.

[Jocko]

If a train leaves Chicago at 4:00pm and travels 65 mph for 5 hours, what time is it GMT?

[SanDiegoSteve]

If a train leaves Chicago at 4:00pm and travels 65 mph for 5 hours, what time is it GMT?

3:00am GMT is the correct answer. What do I win?