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Joe West vs. White Sox

kcfan102

By kcfan102
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kcfan102

kcfan102

Posted
Posted

Here in KC, it get to see plenty of the White Sox (unfortunately) and more so a lot of Mark Buehrle. It's a well known fact that Buehrle has a good move to first (him being a left handed pitcher). I've thought, for a while, that his normal move gets as close the line as it gets, sometimes going over the line. The line I am refering to is the mythical "45*" line, you know, that gray area that determines whether a left hander's foot steps more towards first than it does home.

Good ol' Joe West called Buehrle on it twice today. I can't say I disagree.

Ozzie's EJ

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8363039

Buehrle's EJ

http://kansascity.royals.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=8363395

What do you guys think? I agree with Joe's balk calls, but then again, I might be biased :TD:

Funny thing, I called THREE balks exactly like this on Saturday.

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blp79

blp79

Posted
Posted (edited)

Brandon I have to agree,from what I see.I am sick of hearing the Sox announcers cry about how Joe has it out for them.:TD:.And then Buehrle throws this glove in anger what does he expect to happen,but as usual it's always the umps fault.

Edited by blp79
txump81

txump81

Posted
Posted

The announcers do go to the extreme and Buehrle did throw the glove. I didn't see the balk though. I would like to have seen the move from Joe West's side. It is difficult to say a call is wrong or right when you don't see the same angle as the umpire. Just my .02.

Thunderheads

Thunderheads

Posted
Posted

So, ...what was the balk called on? Crossing his leg over the rubber, or his step??? Because, ...in the replays, ....it doesn't look like a balk to me,...I've seen way worse

tjthresh

tjthresh

Posted
Posted

So, ...what was the balk called on? Crossing his leg over the rubber, or his step??? Because, ...in the replays, ....it doesn't look like a balk to me,...I've seen way worse

He didn't step to first.

mazzamouth

mazzamouth

Posted
Posted (edited)

He didn't step to first.

you saw that?... wow good eyes cause in that very bad angle on the video.. but remeber as long as he steps to the 45 foot line and towards 1st he is ok...

Edited by mazzamouth
tjthresh

tjthresh

Posted
Posted

you saw that?... wow good eyes cause in that very bad angle on the video.. but remeber as long as he steps to the 45 foot line and towards 1st he is ok...

He didn't step directly to first.

I didn't know the 45 foot line thing.

calablue

calablue

Posted
Posted

you saw that?... wow good eyes cause in that very bad angle on the video.. but remeber as long as he steps to the 45 foot line and towards 1st he is ok...

I know the 45 degree step is an accepted practice, but that doesn't make it a legal move. OBR 8.05c specifically states that it is a balk if the pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. :agasp_: Please, if there is an OBR rule somewhere else that says that the pitcher may step at a 45 degree instead of directly toward the base to which he throws, cite it for me. Otherwise no pitcher or manager has a legitimate argument that just because he has always done it it is legal and it should not be called a balk. They have simply gotten away with it in the past.

Mike Prince

Mike Prince

Posted
Posted

It's also some level of umpire judgement when making the call. Obviously he saw something that he didn't like and called the balks. It will be impossible to see what he saw in the video.

kcfan102

kcfan102

Posted
  • Author
Posted

I know the 45 degree step is an accepted practice, but that doesn't make it a legal move. OBR 8.05c specifically states that it is a balk if the pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. :agasp_: Please, if there is an OBR rule somewhere else that says that the pitcher may step at a 45 degree instead of directly toward the base to which he throws, cite it for me. Otherwise no pitcher or manager has a legitimate argument that just because he has always done it it is legal and it should not be called a balk. They have simply gotten away with it in the past.

There isn't one. It's in the FED casebook, and it may be in some other book that umpires might use to interpret the rulebook, but it's not in the OBR book.

Wally Bell made a similar call two years ago in Atlanta. Here it is.

The angle in the second replay is much better than the non-angle in the first. It's tough to tell, but Buehrle's foot goes awfully far forward for me.

In my opinion, if you're going to do that sort of move, you must accept that you'll come across an umpire who judges that his move is in fact a balk, simply because he comes so close. Really, if Joe didn't call it, I would be ok with it. Since he did call it, I can also understand why. Joe West, obviously believes that's a balk, so why do it again? Then, why throw your glove?

MPLSMatt

MPLSMatt

Posted
Posted

Announcers like these idiots are the reason that we take crap from parents over some call in a JV game. These guys are completely out of line, not only with the "he's a disgrace" but then the whole "Joe west clearly wants to put it right in Buehrle's behind." I just can't believe that no one from MLB would be bothered by that.

Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

calablue, you will probably not find the 45 degree step in any valid umpire manual. It is just a commonly accepted point of reference or interpretation. Some time ago in spring training they experimented with 45 degree lines on the mound. It was a horrible failure.

Dragon29

Dragon29

Posted
Posted

OK - Two disclaimers

1) I watched only the Buehrle EJ video and with no sound (at work)

2) I am an NL guy, so I have no vested interest in anything that happens in the AL

Righteous balk call - no doubt.

Righteous EJ - no doubt

I heard what both Buehrle & Guillen said as I was getting ready to come into the office this morning. They should both be fined for their comments re:Joe West. A suspension of Guillen wouldn't bother me, but I don't know if that's necessary.

24sdad

24sdad

Posted
Posted

Wally Bell made a similar call two years ago in Atlanta. Here it is.

As soon as I watched the link above, this came to mind...

© The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;

Rule 8.05© Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.

A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps. It is possible, with runners on first and third, for the pitcher to step toward third and not throw, merely to bluff the runner back to third; then seeing the runner on first start for second, turn and step toward and throw to first base. This is legal. However, if, with runners on first and third, the pitcher, while in contact with the rubber, steps toward third and then immediately and in practically the same motion “wheels” and throws to first base, it is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk. Of course, if the pitcher steps off the rubber and then makes such a move, it is not a balk.

Regarding Buehrle, his step toward first is not that bad...considering he was falling toward HP when he stepped. The clip in the ESPN link shows this a little better (although from the 3b side, but same angle West had).

Great move from Buehrle if he can get away with it. His push and body movement toward home, to me, is what is deceiving. Good call.

calablue

calablue

Posted
Posted

UIC, I know I've never seen it in OBR. NCAA has a rule that allows it. ( 9-1-a-6). B) The main point of my statement was that I think that no pitcher or manager has a legitimate argument that just because he has always done it, it is legal and it should not be called a balk. They have simply gotten away with it in the past. It is a move that is meant to deceive the runner, so why should it be allowed when any move that is meant to deceive the runner is supposed to be a balk ? B) Just wanted to put my :2cents: worth in.

kcfan102

kcfan102

Posted
  • Author
Posted (edited)

Oh no, I really like Jeff Passan, he had a great article about Buck O'Neil and Joe Posnanski a few years ago.

Oh well.

It seems to me like everyone (in the media, of course) is blaming this and the Red Sox/Yankees situation on the fact Joe West is trying to promote his country albums. Give me a break.

What if Brian O'Nora made the call? What would people say if Fielden Culbreth banged him on it?

These players are good at what they do, no doubt about it. Mark Buehrle might be one of the best pitchers of his time, but that doesn't mean he wakes up and pisses gold. He made a boo boo, and one of the league's best umpires called him out on it. Get the hell over it. It looked like a balk to me, I showed it to some other umpire friends, and they agreed as well.

Edited by kcfan102
jjb

jjb

Posted
Posted

Assume that they're using the invisible 45 degree line, and assume that the pitcher uses it to his advantage to step exactly on top of the invisible line. OK? I've got a Varsity pitcher that's been doing ot for years. I balked him earlier thos season, and the coach came out and explained that he stepped on the (invisible) line. My response was "Look, if the speed limit is 65 mles per hour, and you want to drive exactly 65 miles per hour, you've gotta expect to get a ticket every now and then. It's my judgement that he went over, so he went over"

BrianC14

BrianC14

Posted
Posted

Here's another article from Yahoo! Sports about the situation. Obviously Jeff Passan, the writer, doesn't get it. Just thought you all might like to read it if you haven't already.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AhyoGHvzvaB4qD9VX.L7ePo5nYcB?slug=jp-west052710

I think Passan - while obviously opinionated - makes some fair points.

An MLB umpire with a publicist? And sending out e-mails to set up interviews? :Horse:

That's over the top.

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

He is a presence in games, and that is the problem. The only place for an umpire is at the bottom of the box score. When one jumps into the game story, he has done one of two things: blown a call or picked a fight with someone. That West specializes in both says everything about him.

This seems to be the mantra of the press and is patently wrong. The press keeps saying the object of the officials is to be unnoticed. The propose of the officials is to mediate the games, enforce the ules and make sure neither team gains an advantage not intended by the rules. Sometimes the calls we make are unpopular, sometimes contraversial and sometimes routine. We are tasked with the job of maintaining order, not be popular.

As to the OP, I thought on the first balk he leg popped before he started so it was two balks in one. Throwing your glove, automatic. Approaching the umpire yakking, automatic. Ozzie is an idiot that o idea how to talk to cameras, how does he think we wouldn't believe he looses ccontrol outside of the mics and mad too.

ukce1861

ukce1861

Posted
Posted

This seems to be the mantra of the press and is patently wrong. The press keeps saying the object of the officials is to be unnoticed. The propose of the officials is to mediate the games, enforce the ules and make sure neither team gains an advantage not intended by the rules. Sometimes the calls we make are unpopular, sometimes contraversial and sometimes routine. We are tasked with the job of maintaining order, not be popular.

I understand what you're saying, but I think there's also some truth to the article. Before I started umpiring, I couldn't tell you the name of one MLB umpire. I flat out...didn't notice them. Same thing with my kids playing LL. If the umpire was good, I couldn't tell you who they were. They did a good job calling balls and strikes, moved the game along and we all went our separate ways. However, the bad ones? The ones that couldn't call a consistent strike zone, the ones that never worked to get an angle on a play. Those guys? Yeah, I noticed and remembered them...

As an umpire, I notice them all. I went to a MiLB game with a guy I work with and drove him nuts by the 3rd inning with my constant comments on the umpires. But did he notice them? No, because they were doing their job.

Should an umpire manage the game and be noticeable to the participants? Sure. But from a fan's prospective, a good umpire is one that you don't notice.

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