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Question about acknowledging a fourth out

calablue

By calablue
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calablue

calablue

Posted
Posted

Consider the following situation: Bases loaded, 2 out, and the batter hits a liner into the gap. All preceding runners score before BR is put out trying to reach third base (continous action), 3 out. Defense makes a proper appeal that BR missed first base. Umpire rules that BR did in fact miss first base and is out (again). 4 out? Now, because BR was out at first, none of the runs would count so...... My question is; Can the batter (or anyone else for that matter) be out twice during the same play (one being the 4th out)??? :wave:

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catoblue

catoblue

Posted
Posted

In missing first, on appeal, it is a force 3rd or 4th out, meaning no runs may score. If he had missed 2B, then we're talking timing play, and if I'm not mistaken, any runs that crossed before the appeal, count.

did I get this correct?

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

In missing first, on appeal, it is a force 3rd or 4th out, meaning no runs may score. If he had missed 2B, then we're talking timing play, and if I'm not mistaken, any runs that crossed before the appeal, count.

did I get this correct?

Yes, that's correct (other than a technical and meaningless in this instance error the the out at first wasn't a "force" -- it was an out by the BR before reaching first. In almost all instances, it can be treated as a force).

tjthresh

tjthresh

Posted
Posted

Thanks for the answer. I just wonder if we treat this as a force, why wouldn't a tag appeal be treated the same way.

Because by rule, runs cannot score if the third out is a force or the BR being put out at first.

That makes me think that appealing a touch at second would be a waste. The runs would still score.

:nod:

JamesC

JamesC

Posted
Posted

If in fact he misses second instead of first, and it does become a timing play, could you imagine the discussion following of who had touched the plate prior to the missing of second base by the BR? Geez that just seems like too much to watch for. I guess that's why it takes a certain type of individual to be able to do our job!

ukce1861

ukce1861

Posted
Posted

If in fact he misses second instead of first, and it does become a timing play, could you imagine the discussion following of who had touched the plate prior to the missing of second base by the BR? Geez that just seems like too much to watch for. I guess that's why it takes a certain type of individual to be able to do our job!

But is it a strict timing play? 7.12 (OBR) says,

Unless two are out, the status of a following runner is not affected by a preceding runner’s failure to touch or retouch a base. If, upon appeal, the preceding runner is the third out, no runners following him shall score. If such third out is the result of a force play, neither preceding nor following runners shall score.

Since this is an appeal on the BR, wouldn't all runs count?

calablue

calablue

Posted
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Posted (edited)

If in fact he misses second instead of first, and it does become a timing play, could you imagine the discussion following of who had touched the plate prior to the missing of second base by the BR? Geez that just seems like too much to watch for. I guess that's why it takes a certain type of individual to be able to do our job!

I believe in this case, all runners, except batter, score if they have crossed the plate before the appeal is sustained.

I got this from a book I use called "Make The Right Call". It is a Major League Baseball's Official Rules and Interpretations Guide. This situation is covered under rule 7.12 (caseplay) (National League)

Edited by calablue
mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

If all the runners have scored when the appeal at second is made then it is a timing play and since the appeal was after the runs scored then they all count. In the OP where the runs don't score, the question is can the same runner make out three and four. The answer is yes. When you have an advantagous fourth out it takes the place of the third out so the out at third goes away and the out at first replaces it.

Now here is a question for everybody. R1 goes around second, falls down and gets tagged on third base side of the base, third out. Now, the defense appeals second on the miss to kill the runs. Allow the appeal or not.

Umpire in Chief

Umpire in Chief

Posted
Posted

Now here is a question for everybody. R1 goes around second, falls down and gets tagged on third base side of the base, third out. Now, the defense appeals second on the miss to kill the runs. Allow the appeal or not.

I don't see why not, the tag is a separate and advantageous out from the missed base which was a force out.

PeteBooth

PeteBooth

Posted
Posted

Can the batter (or anyone else for that matter) be out twice during the same play (one being the 4th out)??? :meditation
:

It depends

There was a HUGE debate on another Forum about this issue

It involved the following:

2 outs R1: base hit by B1. In rounding second base R1 misses second base and immediately scrambles back to touch the base where he is tagged.

Can the defense appeal R1's miss of second base for the advanatageous 4th out?

J/R says NO

For your enjoyment here is the link and the corresponding debates on this issue.

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/boards/obrrules/message.cfm?id=106810

Pete Booth

noumpere

noumpere

Posted
Posted

If in fact he misses second instead of first, and it does become a timing play, could you imagine the discussion following of who had touched the plate prior to the missing of second base by the BR?

WTHeck difference does that make? The timing of the out is at the time the appeal is made, not the time the base was missed.

Maybe I just missed the sarcasm / humour in your post. If so, you got me, and I salute you.

DirtyDawg

DirtyDawg

Posted
Posted

It depends

There was a HUGE debate on another Forum about this issue

It involved the following:

2 outs R1: base hit by B1. In rounding second base R1 misses second base and immediately scrambles back to touch the base where he is tagged.

Can the defense appeal R1's miss of second base for the advanatageous 4th out?

J/R says NO

For your enjoyment here is the link and the corresponding debates on this issue.

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/boards/obrrules/message.cfm?id=106810

Pete Booth

I would think in your situation that this would not be an appealable play, since the runner is trying to get back to where he missed and was tagged out.

PeteBooth

PeteBooth

Posted
Posted

I would think in your situation that this would not be an appealable play, since the runner is trying to get back to where he missed and was tagged out.[/
QUOTE]

That's what sparked the debate if you read the link I attached.

Remember R1 INITIALLY was forced to second base. He was subsequentally tagged out for out number 3 BUT he was still forced to the base and missed it.

There is a difference of opinion on this that's why I posted the link.

PBUC says you can get the advantageous 4th out appeal in the situation presented. JR says NO. This is where the authorities disagree.

I recommend reading the link to get all views as there were some NOTABLE posters "back then" who weighed in on the subject matter.

Pete Booth

mstaylor

mstaylor

Posted
Posted

I was on the Jim Booth side of the argument. That was a time where Warren and CArl would take an off the wall stance and then beat you to death with a bazillion words that said nothing. I really like Carl, couldn't stand Warren. The result is you can get the appeal. WW and PapaC kept saying that passing the base removed the force and tagging him going back was unrelaxed play, which is all true. They also kept saying that you can't appeal in an unrelaxed situation, also true. Where they ered was they insisted because the runner had passed the base then the force was removed and you couldn't get the appeal. If this were true you could never appeal a missed base. The only difference is here it is the same runner at the same base.

If a BR misses first and is thrown out at second for the third out, can you go back and get the appeal at first. Absolutely! Here you have a R1 missing second and then being tagged out going back into second. At that point I interpret the rules to say you get the appeal.

My other point is if the same runner goes on and gets thrown out at third, nobody would question the legality of the appeal. The conditions in the rules is no different.

yawetag

yawetag

Posted
Posted

2 outs R1: base hit by B1. In rounding second base R1 misses second base and immediately scrambles back to touch the base where he is tagged.

Can the defense appeal R1's miss of second base for the advanatageous 4th out?

Where was the 3rd out? You have to have a 3rd out to get an advantageous 4th out.

yawetag

yawetag

Posted
Posted

Andrew:

He got tagged scrambling back to second for the third out. The fourth out is the miss going around.

Then why does it matter? If R1 is the only runner (other than BR), and he's tagged out going back to 2B for the third out, why even care about the appeal?

Edit: This is the post we're discussing, not the OP:

It depends

There was a HUGE debate on another Forum about this issue

It involved the following:

2 outs R1: base hit by B1. In rounding second base R1 misses second base and immediately scrambles back to touch the base where he is tagged.

Can the defense appeal R1's miss of second base for the advanatageous 4th out?

J/R says NO

For your enjoyment here is the link and the corresponding debates on this issue.

http://www.eteamz.com/baseball/boards/obrrules/message.cfm?id=106810

Pete Booth

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