I was a jerk

[grayhawk]

My son was playing in a 12U travel tournament this weekend and I was one of the coaches. I have coached for a few years and have been umpiring for 3 and am making the transition from coach to umpire. So, I have to fight the urge to speak up when something happens on the field that I don't agree with. That said, I don't ever argue or say a word about judgement calls. Strike zone? Not a peep. Close plays at the bases? No way. (In fact, my son was called out at first on a banger that I thought he beat out and I didn't utter a word). So, here we are in the second inning and we are on defense. I am watching our pitcher and from out of nowhere, "That's a balk!" Our head coach politely asks what he did and the answer is, "He took signs off the rubber." Here is where I get myself in trouble. I retort, "That's not a balk!" PU and BU's reply, "Yes, it is!" I tell the head coach he should protest to get the TD involved and he decides against it. So I let it go (for now).

Inning ends and I calmly walk up to BU (I know, I know) and tell him that taking signs off the rubber is not a balk because isn't listed in 8.05. He tells me to go back to the dugout and I tell him it's a "don't do that" and that it's a violation without a penalty and he tells me "One more word, and your gone." I was tempted to say "word" just to see what he would do, but I decide that I've taken it too far and to let it go. I apologized after the game to both umpires and that they did a great job (they did), but that it really isn't a balk and from one umpire to another, it's something that they should consider. They accept my apology and it's all good.

OK, so mentioning something in the past is a no no, and something I wouldn't put up with when I am working. Hey, I'm human. For those of you who are still in the dual role of coach and umpire, how hard do you find it to bite your tongue when an umpire applies a rule incorrectly?

[mstaylor]

Really tough. Luckily when coaching I was always the manager so I could question whatever I wished. I never argued judgment and never raised my voice on an improper ruling. I would certainly question it but I would never raise my voice.

[sdix00]

I was really challenged in this dual role last year. So much so, that I decided to quit managing and focus on umpiring full time. My boys are on the HS squad and don't play much rec ball any more and my daughter is content to play softball with her friends on an 0-7 team this year. So I am good with not getting involved.

BUT -

At just about any level below HS Varsity, I see it. An umpire will call a balk for taking signs off the rubber (or some other myth). I mean, I thought it was too until REI and MST beat it out of me and explained it in a way that finally made sense.

Unless you live on this forum or officiate at a level where they actually require you to know the rules to this degree, these calls are going to be a part of our baseball experience. I can either fight 90% of the umpires at this level who might misinterpret a rule and try to teach the world to sing in perfect harmony, or I can be satisfied that I am one of the 10% of rec umpires who took the time to learn the rule correctly.

If I am the manager, and it's a critical balk call, then I would probably protest. But I wouldn't try to get the umpire to see the light, beyond asking him a couple leading questions that will allow him to either fix it quietly or place his foot in his mouth later with the TD. The good news is that logic and the rules are on my side.

I remember the good ole days when the umpire called my kid out for throwing the bat, and I and the rest of the parents nodded our heads like everybody knows that is an automatic out. That was a fun year of watching from the stands. Then they asked me to volunteer. I studied and while I thought I was learning the rules, I was actually learning how to piss off parents and umpires.

Ignorance really is bliss sometimes.

[mstaylor]

I got totally hosed by a young umpire, later to become Mazz's partner, on a dropped ball. F9 dropped a can of corn and my R3 didn't tag because he knew it fell in. The PU called the catch and banged the leaving early on R3 on the appeal. I simply went out and asked if he had a catch, he did, I said OK and went to the dugout. Most managers would have lost their minds because it was obvious to everybody but him, but no need to argue as it was judgment.

After the game I explained to him how to avoid missing that call. He was 16 or 17 at the time and I saw no reason to take it any further. That is the advantage of being an umpire and knowing what he was doing.

[Thunderheads]

he threatened to kick you out for what you were saying ?!?!?!?!?

THAT is a big problem right there!

[mstaylor]

This is very common with untrained umpires to make an erroneous ruling, then not being confident in their ruling will shut any discussion down because they can't explain it. Many times this leads to threat of ejection.

[grayhawk]

he threatened to kick you out for what you were saying ?!?!?!?!?

THAT is a big problem right there!

Well, in fairness to the umpire, I was bringing up a call after an inning on a play that happened during that inning. What was done was done. I really shouldn't have said anything at that point. Besides, to him, I was probably just a rat, not someone that actually does know the rules.

The part of the story I didn't tell was that when our head coach was heading over to the 3rd base coaches box for the next inning, the PU told him that we weren't playing under little league rules, we were playing under MLB rules. The head coach told me that the next day. If I had known that the PU said that at the time, I would most certainly have gotten tossed.

[cyclonehokiece]

Just one thing that gets under my skin a little, and I don't know if it is only me, but is when a ruling is argued by a coach (most of the time in this case, he is arguing judgment) is that he brings up that he is an umpire too. Now, if you really were an umpire, wouldn't you know arguing judgment goes against the rules? Most of the time this is at a little league (where they may umpire as volunteer at the lower levels to cover games, but who knows, they may have more formal training) and does not really happen at the higher levels.

However, during my first year after formal training, one of my classmates pulled this on my partner. This classmate was coaching his son's team, and my partner called one of his kids (not his son) out and ejected him for malicious contact. He went out to argue the normal "he is a good kid" etc., but at the end, he brought up that "Hey, I am a blue too and there is no way I would have ruled that." Now, my partner did nothing, and I was just getting into the swing of calling competitive ball and there was pretty much a lock on the trigger. However, after the game which finished without futhur incident, he apologized to my partner for his statement. Later in the season, I saw him again, and we shared a laugh over the situation (he was an umpire that day), because he realized that he had no business arguing the judgment call and all he really could ask is what the umpire saw and maybe get him to go for help if warranted.

[Thunderheads]

he threatened to kick you out for what you were saying ?!?!?!?!?

THAT is a big problem right there!

Well, in fairness to the umpire, I was bringing up a call after an inning on a play that happened during that inning. What was done was done. I really shouldn't have said anything at that point. Besides, to him, I was probably just a rat, not someone that actually does know the rules.

The part of the story I didn't tell was that when our head coach was heading over to the 3rd base coaches box for the next inning, the PU told him that we weren't playing under little league rules, we were playing under MLB rules. The head coach told me that the next day. If I had known that the PU said that at the time, I would most certainly have gotten tossed.

Nahhh....

If your approach was cordial and NON confrontational ....his "one more word and you're gone" comment is uncalled for ....

this is the kind of mentality in umpires that gives us all a bad name. No one should be in a situation where they can't even have a discussion, ...rational discussion about something during the game...

Now, ...if it gets heated and there's issues .......well then, ok ....

[conbo61]

Two years ago I managed my son's LL team and the Association I am member of supplies our umpires. In one of our games I am walking back from the 1st base coaches box to our 3rd base dugout and stop to give our pitcher a brief chat, encouraging words as it were. The ump shouts to me, "Keep it moving or I am going to charge you with a conference." I just looked at him like he was crazy. Lighten up Francis.

The next inning when we go back out to defense, our pitcher takes the mound and this umpire comes strolling out behind the mound and starts to coach my pitcher while he warms up. Now this young man was just coming off an arm injury, so I asked the ump to please not stand there and distract our pitcher. (I did say "Please") His reply - "I will stand anywhere I want."

I was fuming.

Now the thing was, we had seen each other at Association meetings. Ironically, we had one later that night and imagine his surprise when I showed up. He did not say a word and I was not going to throw him under the bus, but I did mention to the assigner that I would appreciate it if he did not send this guy to any more of our games.

BAAADDDD attitude.

Our team did draw him for one more game, and his attitude improved a little, but he did not do a very good job.

I have not seen him for two years now.

he threatened to kick you out for what you were saying ?!?!?!?!?

THAT is a big problem right there!

Well, in fairness to the umpire, I was bringing up a call after an inning on a play that happened during that inning. What was done was done. I really shouldn't have said anything at that point. Besides, to him, I was probably just a rat, not someone that actually does know the rules.

The part of the story I didn't tell was that when our head coach was heading over to the 3rd base coaches box for the next inning, the PU told him that we weren't playing under little league rules, we were playing under MLB rules. The head coach told me that the next day. If I had known that the PU said that at the time, I would most certainly have gotten tossed.

Nahhh....

If your approach was cordial and NON confrontational ....his "one more word and you're gone" comment is uncalled for ....

this is the kind of mentality in umpires that gives us all a bad name. No one should be in a situation where they can't even have a discussion, ...rational discussion about something during the game...

Now, ...if it gets heated and there's issues .......well then, ok ....

[spiritump]

he threatened to kick you out for what you were saying ?!?!?!?!?

THAT is a big problem right there!

Well, in fairness to the umpire, I was bringing up a call after an inning on a play that happened during that inning. What was done was done. I really shouldn't have said anything at that point. Besides, to him, I was probably just a rat, not someone that actually does know the rules.

The part of the story I didn't tell was that when our head coach was heading over to the 3rd base coaches box for the next inning, the PU told him that we weren't playing under little league rules, we were playing under MLB rules. The head coach told me that the next day. If I had known that the PU said that at the time, I would most certainly have gotten tossed.

At the point of your argument the ump thought the right thing -you where a rat--as time goes if you continue to do both (ump and coach) you will be bad at both--choose the one you love the most and do the best you can.

[mstaylor]

It was really interesting when I managed because most of the umpires I trained. I had one tell me he hated to see me come out because he knew he had screwed up but not what. I really made it a point to only question rules. I also didn't have to play the "I'm an umpire too" card because I trained all of them. On several occasions I was just clarifying what he was calling, not his interp.

Most guys that pull the umpire card usually aren't trained. I was protested in a state tournament and the knucklehead pulled that on me. He had been to one LL clinic, and he was wrong.

[grayhawk]

he threatened to kick you out for what you were saying ?!?!?!?!?

THAT is a big problem right there!

Well, in fairness to the umpire, I was bringing up a call after an inning on a play that happened during that inning. What was done was done. I really shouldn't have said anything at that point. Besides, to him, I was probably just a rat, not someone that actually does know the rules.

The part of the story I didn't tell was that when our head coach was heading over to the 3rd base coaches box for the next inning, the PU told him that we weren't playing under little league rules, we were playing under MLB rules. The head coach told me that the next day. If I had known that the PU said that at the time, I would most certainly have gotten tossed.

At the point of your argument the ump thought the right thing -you where a rat--as time goes if you continue to do both (ump and coach) you will be bad at both--choose the one you love the most and do the best you can.

I hear you and I really only plan to coach for another year or so. My son will be league age 12 for the spring season, and we are scheduled to play at CDP next August. I prefer to umpire and I am a much better umpire than coach anyway - and it's something I can do whether my son is playing or not. Coaching doesn't impact my ability to be a good umpire, but umpring affects my coaching. I won't make any comments about judgement calls, but when a rule is applied incorrectly, I seem to lose my patience. As Michael said, not being the manager makes it twice as hard because I can't call time and go out and talk to the umpires.

Knowing the rules thoroughly is a big help in many situations as a coach, however. As an example, I was watching a game last weekend after we were finished, and with R1 and R2 with one out, the pitcher blew through his stop and the balk was called. He delivered the pitch and it was hit on the fly into short center and was not caught. Runners didn't really know what to do, and BR just stood about halfway between home and first. Ball is thrown into the infield and I am thinking - "throw it to first!" They don't and all runners, including the BR start walking to their base and reach safely. Play is relaxed and the umpires now call time. If the defense was smart, they would only have R2 and R3 with no pitch and the BR returned to bat with his previous count. Because the coaches didn't know what to do, the bases were now loaded. Excellent job by the umpires on that play.

[yawetag]

I hear you and I really only plan to coach for another year or so. My son will be league age 12 for the spring season, and we are scheduled to play at CDP next August.

Need an umpire?

[JaxRolo]

I hear you and I really only plan to coach for another year or so. My son will be league age 12 for the spring season, and we are scheduled to play at CDP next August.

Need an umpire?

Hey I was going to ask that!!!

[Mr Umpire]

Knowing the rules thoroughly is a big help in many situations as a coach, however. As an example, I was watching a game last weekend after we were finished, and with R1 and R2 with one out, the pitcher blew through his stop and the balk was called. He delivered the pitch and it was hit on the fly into short center and was not caught. Runners didn't really know what to do, and BR just stood about halfway between home and first. Ball is thrown into the infield and I am thinking - "throw it to first!" They don't and all runners, including the BR start walking to their base and reach safely. Play is relaxed and the umpires now call time. If the defense was smart, they would only have R2 and R3 with no pitch and the BR returned to bat with his previous count. Because the coaches didn't know what to do, the bases were now loaded. Excellent job by the umpires on that play.

Or, it was a good job by the defense. If less than 2 outs, they still have IFR in effect and a DP to start at any base. Now, they can get an out at the plate by simply touching instead of tagging a runner. Never know how things will turn out and which way is best.

[grayhawk]

I hear you and I really only plan to coach for another year or so. My son will be league age 12 for the spring season, and we are scheduled to play at CDP next August.

Need an umpire?

Hey I was going to ask that!!!

Here's the funny part about that. I was asked by another local team to be their umpire for CDP and it appears that both teams are scheduled for the same week (August 25th). So I can get my trip paid for by the other team. Of course, I will likely miss some of my son's games because I will be umpiring on another field, so I will have to decide if that's something I want to do.

As far as needing an umpire for our team, there are some guys I know locally that I would want to invite first, but it's nice to know the good people of Umpire-Empire are ready to step up if needed.

[grayhawk]

Knowing the rules thoroughly is a big help in many situations as a coach, however. As an example, I was watching a game last weekend after we were finished, and with R1 and R2 with one out, the pitcher blew through his stop and the balk was called. He delivered the pitch and it was hit on the fly into short center and was not caught. Runners didn't really know what to do, and BR just stood about halfway between home and first. Ball is thrown into the infield and I am thinking - "throw it to first!" They don't and all runners, including the BR start walking to their base and reach safely. Play is relaxed and the umpires now call time. If the defense was smart, they would only have R2 and R3 with no pitch and the BR returned to bat with his previous count. Because the coaches didn't know what to do, the bases were now loaded. Excellent job by the umpires on that play.

Or, it was a good job by the defense. If less than 2 outs, they still have IFR in effect and a DP to start at any base. Now, they can get an out at the plate by simply touching instead of tagging a runner. Never know how things will turn out and which way is best.

Well, I can say it wasn't done intentionally - they just didn't know what to do. There were 2 strikes on the batter at the time of the balk, however.

[EKeil]

I hear you and I really only plan to coach for another year or so. My son will be league age 12 for the spring season, and we are scheduled to play at CDP next August.

Need an umpire?

Hey I was going to ask that!!!

Here's the funny part about that. I was asked by another local team to be their umpire for CDP and it appears that both teams are scheduled for the same week (August 25th). So I can get my trip paid for by the other team. Of course, I will likely miss some of my son's games because I will be umpiring on another field, so I will have to decide if that's something I want to do.

As far as needing an umpire for our team, there are some guys I know locally that I would want to invite first, but it's nice to know the good people of Umpire-Empire are ready to step up if needed.

Greyhawk - I was looking at the umpire section of CDP's web site as my son's team is heading there the week before your's next August -- and I ran into this note on http://www.cooperstowndreamspark.com/umpire.html

<LI>No player/coach relatives may participate in this Umpire Program.

This may help your decision somewhat.

[mjr_2013]

I'm not a coach, and I've never had an "I'm an umpire" card pulled on me, but there was a time when a coach tried to intimidate me and my partner.

There was a play at 1st (coaches team was in the field) in the 1st inning, and there was a minor train wreck at 1st... F3 was bobbling the ball and it fell upon collision. Neither the BR nor F3 had intent, so I had nothing... Manager comes out,

"He barreled my player!"

"No sir, both tried to get out of the way."

"Well I'm on the league board, and I'm telling you, I'm watching you both! You're asking for a protest!"

At this point I kind of just walked away.

In the 3rd inning, his team was getting whalloped, so he came out to pull his pitcher. As he takes the ball, he says to me: I'm playing this game under protest by the way."

What?!

Obviously nothing came of it, but still... :rolleyes:

[johnnyg08]

He obviously doesn't know the protest rules.

I get the "I used to umpire" card played on me from time to time. That's good humor is what it is.

[mstaylor]

I'm not a coach, and I've never had an "I'm an umpire" card pulled on me, but there was a time when a coach tried to intimidate me and my partner.

There was a play at 1st (coaches team was in the field) in the 1st inning, and there was a minor train wreck at 1st... F3 was bobbling the ball and it fell upon collision. Neither the BR nor F3 had intent, so I had nothing... Manager comes out,

"He barreled my player!"

"No sir, both tried to get out of the way."

"Well I'm on the league board, and I'm telling you, I'm watching you both! You're asking for a protest!"

At this point I kind of just walked away.

In the 3rd inning, his team was getting whalloped, so he came out to pull his pitcher. As he takes the ball, he says to me: I'm playing this game under protest by the way."

What?!

Obviously nothing came of it, but still...

And that should absolutely be reported to the UIC. His status in the league means nothing, absolutely nothing, in a game. I had a coach pull that on me in another sport. It was in a local league with a local age specific rule. I called it and he disagreed, I gave the hand up stop sign. At halftime he came to center to tell me he was a commissioner and knew the rule because he wrote it. I told him him he may have written t but I was in charge of interpreting it. He nodded, said I was right and walked away.

[mjr_2013]

I'm not a coach, and I've never had an "I'm an umpire" card pulled on me, but there was a time when a coach tried to intimidate me and my partner.

There was a play at 1st (coaches team was in the field) in the 1st inning, and there was a minor train wreck at 1st... F3 was bobbling the ball and it fell upon collision. Neither the BR nor F3 had intent, so I had nothing... Manager comes out,

"He barreled my player!"

"No sir, both tried to get out of the way."

"Well I'm on the league board, and I'm telling you, I'm watching you both! You're asking for a protest!"

At this point I kind of just walked away.

In the 3rd inning, his team was getting whalloped, so he came out to pull his pitcher. As he takes the ball, he says to me: I'm playing this game under protest by the way."

What?!

Obviously nothing came of it, but still...

And that should absolutely be reported to the UIC. His status in the league means nothing, absolutely nothing, in a game. I had a coach pull that on me in another sport. It was in a local league with a local age specific rule. I called it and he disagreed, I gave the hand up stop sign. At halftime he came to center to tell me he was a commissioner and knew the rule because he wrote it. I told him him he may have written t but I was in charge of interpreting it. He nodded, said I was right and walked away.

I'm pretty sure I did report it... Now that I'm talking about it more, I think I may have actually told this story before on this site. I'm going to go check to see if I did.

[mjr_2013]

LOL, yep... There was a 6 responce thread on it, in which my OP has the full length email report I sent to the UIC.

http://umpire-empire...__fromsearch__1

[Umpire in Chief]

Any act of intimidation towards an umpire is an auto EJ.