tradtional vs hockey

[D62 blue]

o.k guys curious how everybody feels about the tradtional cage vs the hockey or "bucket" as some say . there was much chatter over the last year or so , after the well publicized injuries to some MLB pu , i believe one was wearing the "bucket" the other a cage . both got concussions . what is the consensus among this group . and any comments about which "bucket" or cage you like ? ump-attire had a very good article about this last year .

[BrianC14]

Try one on - even it's a catcher's model.

Wear it around the store for a few - scare some kids.

That's the best way to decide.

[kcfan102]

Try one on - even it's a catcher's model.

Wear it around the store for a few - scare some kids.

That's the best way to decide.

That's good advice.

If Wilson would pay me, I'd go around the country promoting their Shock FX. I love that thing.

What you'll find out is whether you're a bucket man or a mask man. The bucket people will tell you theirs is the best (as I will), and the mask people will tell that a buckets suck and that masks are the way to go.

It's simply a matter of opinion. If you do as Brian says and try it on and you like it, it has some pretty good benefits. But some people just don't like the fit. Some people don't like the sound it makes? But in my opinion the acoustic aren't noticeable the protection is great and the visibility if wonderful.

As far as concussions go I would say they are about equal, even with a traditional hockey style if worn properly. The two you probably heard about was Kerwin Danly and Ed Hickox. Kerwin got hit by a piece of broken bat, the Shock probably helped him, and Hickox took one off of the very top of the cage where there is a shock absorber. The absorber worked, but the plastic failed and he suffered because of it. With the new version of the Shock FX they made a lot of improvements over the old one and that specific place on the helmet was addressed as well as the cage welds and materials.

But I'm a bucket buy, I don't mean to persuade you either way. Try them both out in back to back games if you can. Let me know if I or we can help you with any other helmet advice.

[mstaylor]

Brandon is correct, bucket guys will tell you that they are best and mask guys will push their view. I am a mask guy, will never wear a bucket and have noticed about half the local bucket guys have switched back to masks. With advent of better vision in the Davis, titanium and others the reason for switching is less.

Do whatever you like but I will let you in on one of me favorite quotes," You can agree with me or you can be wrong." :D

[Kevin Finnerty]

The view in a Shock FX or an All-Star is better than any mask. The protection for the sides and back of the head is superior, obviously.

However, the sound of a helmet shot is worse than any mask shot, and depending on where it hits, some of the shots are actually more physically traumatic than mask shots.

Also, you actually see ensuing plays better when using a mask, because you take it off. You leave the helmet on, partly because it takes too long to remove it, and it's cumbersome to carry.

For overall safety, the HSM is better. For peripheral vision the HSM is better. For ease of use and in some ways, comfort, the mask is better. For fitting into the equipment bag, the mask is better.

[Thunderheads]

The view in a Shock FX or an All-Star is better than any mask. The protection for the sides and back of the head is superior, obviously.

However, the sound of a helmet shot is worse than any mask shot, and depending on where it hits, some of the shots are actually more physically traumatic than mask shots.

Also, you actually see ensuing plays better when using a mask, because you take it off. You leave the helmet on, partly because it takes too long to remove it, and it's cumbersome to carry.

For overall safety, the HSM is better. For peripheral vision the HSM is better. For ease of use and in some ways, comfort, the mask is better. For fitting into the equipment bag, the mask is better.

2 things ...

1) Oddly enough, HSMs are the only style that have any "standards" for safety (NOCSAE). Standard masks still do NOT have a standard, ...nor do chest protectors ......very strange.....but true

I will be wearing an All-Star bucket this year , being my first year back since 1995. Obviously I wore a mask back then, so...I'll see what I like better

2) While messing w/ my HSM, ...I've been working on taking it off, etc, with my cap on, and I've had zero trouble at all. Grab it just like a standard mask w/ the same motion, and it's off. BUT...that's just me!

[kcfan102]

2 things ...

1) Oddly enough, HSMs are the only style that have any "standards" for safety (NOCSAE). Standard masks still do NOT have a standard, ...nor do chest protectors ......very strange.....but true

I will be wearing an All-Star bucket this year , being my first year back since 1995. Obviously I wore a mask back then, so...I'll see what I like better

2) While messing w/ my HSM, ...I've been working on taking it off, etc, with my cap on, and I've had zero trouble at all. Grab it just like a standard mask w/ the same motion, and it's off. BUT...that's just me!

I don't wear a cap with my bucket. But I don't agree about the statement it taking too long to take off. You take it off just like the mask. Take your indicator and dedicate 30 minutes to finding a spot on the HSM where you have a good grip and practice. It's the same when you practiced taking your mask off with your hat.

A tip for HSM... don't wear a hat unless you really feel that naked without it. When you go bear skulled, all of your sweat gets on the pads, and any time you take off the helmet all of the seat on your head cools and all the sweat on your pads cool in about 10 seconds. When you put it back on, it's like AC in there. It's a beautiful thing.

The only thing cumbersome about the bucket I have found are safe calls, you have an extra wieght in your left hand and it feels weird at first.

It certainly takes some getting used to, but I think it's totally worth it. You may think it's a waste of time... and that's fine too. To each their own.

[Umpire in Chief]

I tried one style of HSM for a few games and didn't care for it. Not saying I would never wear one, just that one wan't right for me. Not comfortable and while I didn't take a headshot while wearing it I had trouble hearing, things were both muffled and echoed a bit.

[BrianC14]

My first try-on of a bucket was with a Wilson Shock that belonged to a guy I was working with. He let me try it on, and it took about 60 seconds to realize it would work for me. I bought one later that week. That was 3 seasons ago.

I don't worry about the hat business. Somebody doesn't like it? Tough toenails, I don't give a darn. It's my brains we're talking about.

As for being too hot as some claim, I have my own anecdotal evidence that will refute that claim. I've worked plenty of 95 degree double headers where my head was sweating up a storm with my wool base cap on, and far less warm while wearing my bucket in the second game.

So there. :cheers:

[Kevin Finnerty]

Reasons I don't wear a bucket (even though I wore one often to catch in the past):

A) The noise (like what Warren referred to)

The crashing sound of a blow (again, the noise)

C) It is unwieldy (as hell)

D) They're often in disrepair (I've never had a screw come loose on a mask---never)

E) The cap thing (I need to wear a cap; not want, need)

I had a Shock FX for a while, thinking I would put it to use in wood bat leagues, or if I had an injury, or if I wanted better skull protection in those clamshell backstops (of which there are several in Los Angeles). But after testing it, using it almost never, and carrying it around for a year as a sort of emergency back-up, I gave it to a college catcher that I know ("Leave me some tickets when you make the big leagues"). I am a traditional mask guy, I guess. Old dog, you know.

There is a place for a bucket in umpiring, just not on my bald head.

[catoblue]

IMHO, it's all a personal preference. A buddy of mine let me borrow his HSM for a couple games last year, to see if I liked it. I like the idea of the helmet giving extra protection, which is why I gave it a try. It just didn't feel right. It's harder to take off, I can't wear my cap under it, I don't like the way they look (call me old-school), and again, it just didn't feel right to me. So mask is where I'm at, unless we ever get forced to wear them.

[Stan W.]

I wish I could find it and post it here....I believe it was Tim C. 's instructions on how to adjust a HSM....

1. Grasp HSM in left hand

2. Hold HSM in outstretched left arm away from the body

3. Drop HSM in nearest garbage can

HSM works well for some and not so much for others.........I expect as the years move on, that as those who grew up as HSM-wearing catchers or with HSM being the standard that more newer umpres might move to the HSM

Although, My own son who caught some in HS and had to wear the HSM as per NFHS rules, quickly reverted to the traditional mask and skull cap once he was made a catcher in college....

I am a traditional mask guy...... I have tried one for a few innings....

I found it:

a bit claustrophobic

a bit warm

way bit loud

just my .02

[Thunderheads]

A combo and a 6 stitch fits under the All-Star .........

[LMSANS]

I switched to the HSM 2 years ago, mainly because of the close-in backstops on some fields. My comments:

• I wear my hat, a 6 seam underneath because I feel more comfortable with something on my minimally covered dome.
  
• When it gets hit on the plastic parts, my ears ring for a while.
  
• I've taken a direct hit with a 90+ fastball and with the exception of the ringing, I was OK.
  
• I have worked many 90+degree days with no additional problem from the heat. When it's 90 degrees & 90 %, it really doesn't matter.
  
• I have no problem removing or putting it on during play. Same as a mask.
  
• I feel I can see better but I have never actually tested them side by side.
  

[kcfan102]

I think the mask people out number the HSM people by a pretty large number.

That's ok though. I like my setup (I am a walking bilboard for Wilson and especially MLB if I didn't wear my pants or shirt).

I still don't see what you guys are saying about noise. I've been rung pretty good a few times and it all just seems a blur. I don't remember any reverberating sound. But hey, once again, to each their own.

Wear what's comfortable to you. There are a lot of, I don't like the term but I'll use it any way; old fashion guys out there who feel naked without a hat and hey, my dad used to be one til he switched to a Diamond Edge.

As far as recomendations go...

for HSMs, I'd go with the new Shock FX, All Star, or Diamond Edge buckets. I don't have any experiance with the All Star but I have heard good things. The Edge is the most comfortable thing there is and the you can't beat the protection of the the Shock.

for masks, I wore a Dynalite for a while, it was good, a pretty basic mask. After that I wore a Diamond Ultralite (or whatever), that was a good mask as well. But If you look around this board, people really like the new Wilson Titanium. I think the biggest thing you have to look at when you're buyign a mask is the quality of the pads and the weight of the cage. Some other guys who wear the masks on here will surly let you in on some good masks to buy.

thats like, my third $0.02 on this thread and I think I'm done haha

so.. that's my $0.06.

[BrianC14]

.....

so.. that's my $0.06.

Sixth sense?

That's indispensable when umpiring. :rollinglaugh:

[JaxRolo]

I have not heard anyone say that the Bucket is too hot. That is one of my fears, I get hot enough just wearing a mask!

[Kevin Finnerty]

A combo and a 6 stitch fits under the All-Star .........

Fits under and works well are vastly different aspects.

[BrianC14]

Fits under and works well are vastly different aspects.

Well it helps to be smarter than the hat.

Ba-da-boom!

BOO-YA! Goodnight everybody! Thanks for coming! B)

I'll be here all week! Be sure and try the veal, and please, tip your waitress generously!

:wave:

[Big Red]

Always been a mask fan and haven't tried a HSM...yet, so no input for ya'll regarding those.

But, I can offer up this advice for a mask.

After reading the review on Midwest Ump concerning the Champro Magnesium Alloy mask, I purchased one (Epic Sports, $82).

I will agree with Pete that the stock Dri-Gear pads don't hack it. The material is like micro-fiber and will catch on any bit of stubble. Plus, they feel like their filled w/ shredded styrofoam.

I ordered some Wilson Wrap-around leather pads, a Wilson sunshield and a Diamond padded throat protector from Ump-Attire. With all that installed, it is an awesome mask....incredibly light (weighs < 1 lb stock), great visibility, and good protection in the form of an extended throat protector, excellent ear/side protection and even a tab at the top to protect you in the event you flinch downward for whatever reason on a...foul tip.

Hang on and put your guns back in the holster, especially Brian ....just checking to see if you were reading. Of course I mean foul ball!

Anyway...I've taken some good shots with it...barely felt them and no damage.

If you don't care for the wrap-arounds, any good leather pads will work...I even put my old Honig's two-tone doeskins on and they fit good.

As far as a choice, I'll echo what some of the other fellas have said...you really need to try both for yourself to see. Plus, check out the reviews of folks here as well as Midwest Ump...he does a pretty thorough review of both HSMs & masks.

http://midwestump.blogspot.com/search/label/Masks

For masks, also check out low-profile v. normal. Maybe someone in the various org's in your area can help you out if you check around.

Last thing I'll add is this important tidbit if you get a mask. I started out with an All-Star steel two-bar perforated anvil w/ heavy pads....did a great job but that thing musta weighed 5 pounds!

Lemme tell you...I quickly found out about momentum/force transfer from physics when hit w/ a ball. If you go the mask route, you should really try for a lighter mask, especially as you move up. When I wore that All-Star, even LL fastballs and softballs rocked my world. B) Glad I didn't work anything higher with it.

Not to mention the first weekend tournament I worked wearing with it made my neck & shoulders feel like I was back at the start of football two-a-days! So, if you can afford it, go with one of the quality lighter masks such as the one I mentioned, the Wilson Titanium, Diamond...there's lots of choices, and great deals out there.

FWIW & good luck!

[Kevin Finnerty]

In a D-I intrasquad game, I had a titanium-bending, uncaught 94-m.p.h. fastball hit me in the left eye/forehead area. By wearing my mask loosely, the ball went behind me to my left and my mask flew off to an area behind me to my right. The blow felt and sounded just like a stiff jab with a boxing glove. That's it.

But the main point is that by going with the energy of the ball, a loosely worn mask quite often gives you less of a jolt than something that remains on your head no matter what like the helmet/mask.

My experiences include many kinds of jolts, including that straight 94 from the next Troy Percival: Sparring with other 200 pounders (with headgear); taking a seagull in the side of the helmet while on a motorcycle traveling at approximately 90 m.p.h. (I don't know how fast the seagull was flying); taking the thick end of a cue stick directly on top of the head (that one actually dented my skull); taking a few long rights over the years from my six-feet-tall wife, etc.

I can attest to the severity of a blow to the mask versus a blow to an HSM. Most mask blows are less traumatic than most HSM blows.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Kevin Finnerty

[kcfan102]

If you wear your HSM properly (ie: not hugging your cranium) it will have the same effect as wearing a mask properly. I've been there too.

Let it sit on there, you should be able to, almost literally, throw it on.

Edited April 8, 2010 by kcfan102

[Big Red]

Damn Kevin, we should start calling you the Terminator since you must have a titanium skull!!!

A seagull to the side of your coconut at 90 mph...can't even imagine what that was like but glad you had a helmet on. Ouch...I reckon the cue stick was from a bar-fight? Or from your wife??? B)

[Kevin Finnerty]

Seagull: Very loud, but seagulls don't weigh that much, and I saw it coming for a second and leaned forward trying to duck it. I was in Malibu on Pacific Coast Highway, the thing went splat all over my helmet and neck. I even got some raw bird splat inside my helmet and on my face. It was rude. I made my way down to the shoreline and stripped to my shorts and dunked my head in the friggin' Pacific. I washed my helmet out in sea water. That seagull thing is how I learned not to flinch at a silly baseball.

As for the cue stick: I was the guy who jumped in when a coward @sshole punched a barmaid right in front of me. One of his coward sucker-punching friends clunked me while I was trying to take the guy down. It was fun watching all of mine and the barmaid's friends dance out into the street with the two cowards while I laid there trying to remember how I fell down and what the game of pool is about.

Ah, the 1980s ...

[kcfan102]

Ah, the 1980s ...

Did you happen to run into a flock of seagulls? B)

Ok that was bad. I'll show myself out.

the bad part, I've seen them in concert :-/