Ejection Totals

[mstaylor]

First I don't track ejections but I have very few. I have a reputation of tossing when needed so consequently I toss very little. We discuss ejections here a lot and many of us recommend ejecting in certain cases. The problem is in many leagues umpires have a tendency not to toss, which allows coaches to become more emboldened. Some guys stay around for years and because of longivity umpires become less likely to toss which makes coaches get worse. There are coaches like that in my area and I never have problems with them because they know to behave when I work.

I am not saying go out and be a redass, just take care of business. I am authoritative and confident but I also am very relaxed and approachable. I do not like guys that go out with a chip on their shoulder or confrontational attitude. To be successful you can't be a doormat but you can't go looking for trouble.

I posted the story of my brother the other day. The coach he had the problem with is a prime example of a coach that umpires have tippytoed around for years. My brother with no experience at all, nine pitches into the game warned the coach about his attitude, then gave a second warning coupled with an ejection warning. Not a peep the rest of the game.

My point is that it was stated that some of us must have huge ejection rates. Our stance has always been that by ejecting now will save ejections later. The hard part is finding the line between doormat and redass.

[Thunderheads]

First I don't track ejections but I have very few. I have a reputation of tossing when needed so consequently I toss very little. We discuss ejections here a lot and many of us recommend ejecting in certain cases. The problem is in many leagues umpires have a tendency not to toss, which allows coaches to become more emboldened. Some guys stay around for years and because of longivity umpires become less likely to toss which makes coaches get worse. There are coaches like that in my area and I never have problems with them because they know to behave when I work.

I am not saying go out and be a redass, just take care of business. I am authoritative and confident but I also am very relaxed and approachable. I do not like guys that go out with a chip on their shoulder or confrontational attitude. To be successful you can't be a doormat but you can't go looking for trouble.

I posted the story of my brother the other day. The coach he had the problem with is a prime example of a coach that umpires have tippytoed around for years. My brother with no experience at all, nine pitches into the game warned the coach about his attitude, then gave a second warning coupled with an ejection warning. Not a peep the rest of the game.

My point is that it was stated that some of us must have huge ejection rates. Our stance has always been that by ejecting now will save ejections later. The hard part is finding the line between doormat and redass.

Great advice Michael, ...and the bolded is HUGE, and I'd like to say that I follow that as well....

[SnareDrum]

Thunderheads stole my reply! Great post Michael and VERY well put. Sort of Game Management vs. Game Dictatorship.

[mstaylor]

I work with a guy that can be a very good umpire but he is his own worse enemy. I have heard him say, as he shows up for a game, "Boy this coach is a jerk, if he says anything I'm dumping him." He is the worst at not leaving the last game behind him. He also takes being questioned as a personal affront. Guys, there are times I expect the coach to come out, if he doesn't then he isn't doing his job. Questioning what you have called, what you saw or how you interpreted a rule is fine. Ranting and raving is not.

[dumbdumb]

It has been said that is easier to bring a red a$ down in temperament than to bring a doormat up in temperament. Do not know if that is true or just a nice phrase to emphasize not letting them run all over you, just like the Al Barlick quote.

Nice post. Hope you bookmark that one for future reference each year for the young guys MST, along with, your post #8 under "What a Week".

[JaxRolo]

Only coaches I ever have to eject are 10U coaches. They just insist on getting the last word. :shakehead:

[Jeff C.]

I recently did a game with my assigner and one of the Big Guys in our assoc. He specifically mentioned to me that my game managment needed improvement, which I knew. Me personally, game management continues to be the most difficult skill to learn. Everything else was good. Good post Mike.

[semper_fi_72]

I recently did a game with my assigner and one of the Big Guys in our assoc. He specifically mentioned to me that my game managment needed improvement, which I knew. Me personally, game management continues to be the most difficult skill to learn. Everything else was good. Good post Mike.

I received a recommendation to another Association and in it were the words "Controls the Game without Controling the Game".

Game management does take time.

When you do it right you will control the game without controlling the game.

[SnareDrum]

Game management does take time.

When you do it right you will control the game without controlling the game.

One of the best things I've ever seen on this site!

[Vegas]

I received a recommendation to another Association and in it were the words "Controls the Game without Controling the Game".

Game management does take time.

When you do it right you will control the game without controlling the game.

Awesome - that's where I want to be.

But speaking as a guy who's never EJed anyone in 4 years - it's tough to know when to pull that hand back and javelin him to the Lot of Parking. It's still iffy to me. I guess it's a "learn with time" thing, along with the 13 or so automatic ejection rules, right?

[zm1283]

Had four last year in the spring/summer combined. The spring season is over for me as of yesterday and I had two, a player in a D2 game and an AC in a high school game last night.

[mstaylor]

As has been noted game management is extremely difficult. Part depends on age, part experience level, part personallity type. What works for one guy can never be pulled off by another. I can say things because I have been around for years and have a no nonsence rep but also fair and approachable. I have a strong personality and a good strong rules knowledge. Managers know that if I make a rule interp, I generally know what I am talking about. There are other guys that claim rules knowledge but are actually just know it alls. They tend to be very short with coaches and explain things badly. Some guys are just young so they have less credibility, even if they actually are quite good. Others don't like rocking the boat. There are many variables that go into handling games.

On the other side of the coin a lot depends on the level, coach experience level, personality types and level of competitiveness. Many times you have to read a situation, the play, type of coach, history with him and your own personality type. Then decide the best course of action, straight explanation, quick sending to the dugout, eject, warning, or other reactions. It is not a cut and dry, black and white formula.

Example:

The coach ejection I had the other day. I had a weird call that caused the manager to come out and question it. He calming asked what I had, thanked me and returned to the dugout. His coach on the other hand came out in front of the dugout 8 to 10 feet and was yelling at me. I brought up the stop sign, he didn't stop. Now in this case I have three choices, just send him to the dugout(not going to happen), eject him or restrict him and the manager. In my mind I have no intention of restricting the manager that just came out as a perfect gentleman and calmly asked for an explanation. So at that point I ejected the coach. A couple of weeks later I was talking to one of the other assts that I know and he thought I was quick. He had seen me let guys go saying more. I agreed but explained he left the dugout to question a call, plus he ran through my stop sign. I explained my choices and I felt ejection was the only option. Once he realized I was ruling on leaving the dugout and running the stopsign, he says he saw my point exactly.

This a long post to simply say there are no easy answers, we will make mistakes while learning our personal approach and as we age and mature we will get better.

[Stan W.]

First I don't track ejections but I have very few. I have a reputation of tossing when needed so consequently I toss very little. We discuss ejections here a lot and many of us recommend ejecting in certain cases. The problem is in many leagues umpires have a tendency not to toss, which allows coaches to become more emboldened. Some guys stay around for years and because of longivity umpires become less likely to toss which makes coaches get worse. There are coaches like that in my area and I never have problems with them because they know to behave when I work.

I am not saying go out and be a redass, just take care of business. I am authoritative and confident but I also am very relaxed and approachable. I do not like guys that go out with a chip on their shoulder or confrontational attitude. To be successful you can't be a doormat but you can't go looking for trouble.

This is an excellent post by Mike.....I do track ejections but just as another item I track in my game journal. The current journal I am using only goes back to 2002. I believe I have a reputation of if a coach or player needs to go, They go......I dont not pass on a probelm child or coach onto the next crew...........and also like mike, I feel I have a low ejection rate....

that being said, in my journal, I show 17 ejections in the last 9 years. here is the breakdown:

Coaches: 7

Players: 10

7 Coaches ejected for:

Arguing Balls and Strikes: 2

Profanity 2

Fighting 2

Prolonged demonstration 1

10 Players ejected for:

Arguing balls and strikes 2 (1 pitcher-1 batter)

Fighting 2

Profanity 2

Throwing equipment 1

Malicious Contact 3

9 years- 702 ball games.....

[SnareDrum]

Interesting night last night... 10U Competitive division with lots of travelling and try-out teams. 1st place team is getting shelled and the coaches are getting aggravated. I have a called 3K right down the middle of the plate & thigh high to end their inning. As the 1B coach is walking by he quietly asks, "How far off the plate was it?" I honestly, and also quietly said, "I'm not quite sure what you mean coach... you mean that last one down the middle?" He said, "Well the catcher was set-up outside." My reply, but in a slightly deeper tone: "Indeed he was, but the pitch was right over the middle." He just nodded and walked off, not happy, but he walked away. If he doesn't walk, then we would have a problem. The decision I made was to let HIM turn it into an argument. He didn't.

Next inning, ... I had one out and after a 6-3 grounder for the 2nd out, the defense of the 1st place team and the stranded R2 (who did not run) leave the field. Immediately from behind me, I hear, "That's only 2". Quickly, all 3 scorekeepers agreed. Apparently, the 3B coach had asked my BU how many outs and had been told there were 2 (I had a chat with him later). So we bring everybody back, and the DC comes over. "He told us there were two so we should be out of the inning. You should go by what he told us" I told him, "I understand. But Coach, the right call is there are two outs NOW. Would you rather us blow it, or get it right." Again a nod and leave. During the next changeover, both of their coaches came over and more or less said they were sorry for being so cranky that night, but their team was playing like crap and they were more than aggravated. I knew that, and I told them that "I don't mind intensity, just insanity."

After the game, all the coaches came by for a handshake, and the former first place team's manager shook it with a pat on my back as he said, "Great job at taking control of everything."

There were a couple of other little things during the game (a call by me for batter INT, and the other coach and balk and non-balks...), but these are two that I could easily see escalating into EJ's by some. As Mike said, you kind of have to be aware of everything.

I know some of you are already pulling out rocks to throw at me for not tossing and I'm sure some of your replies may have been more, um, aggressive... but I know the coaches, the league, and the general tone of that game... This is how I decided to handle this one.

[JaxRolo]

Interesting night last night... 10U Competitive division with lots of travelling and try-out teams. 1st place team is getting shelled and the coaches are getting aggravated. I have a called 3K right down the middle of the plate & thigh high to end their inning. As the 1B coach is walking by he quietly asks, "How far off the plate was it?" I honestly, and also quietly said, "I'm not quite sure what you mean coach... you mean that last one down the middle?" He said, "Well the catcher was set-up outside." My reply, but in a slightly deeper tone: "Indeed he was, but the pitch was right over the middle." He just nodded and walked off, not happy, but he walked away. If he doesn't walk, then we would have a problem. The decision I made was to let HIM turn it into an argument. He didn't.

Next inning, ... I had one out and after a 6-3 grounder for the 2nd out, the defense of the 1st place team and the stranded R2 (who did not run) leave the field. Immediately from behind me, I hear, "That's only 2". Quickly, all 3 scorekeepers agreed. Apparently, the 3B coach had asked my BU how many outs and had been told there were 2 (I had a chat with him later). So we bring everybody back, and the DC comes over. "He told us there were two so we should be out of the inning. You should go by what he told us" I told him, "I understand. But Coach, the right call is there are two outs NOW. Would you rather us blow it, or get it right." Again a nod and leave. During the next changeover, both of their coaches came over and more or less said they were sorry for being so cranky that night, but their team was playing like crap and they were more than aggravated. I knew that, and I told them that "I don't mind intensity, just insanity."

After the game, all the coaches came by for a handshake, and the former first place team's manager shook it with a pat on my back as he said, "Great job at taking control of everything."

There were a couple of other little things during the game (a call by me for batter INT, and the other coach and balk and non-balks...), but these are two that I could easily see escalating into EJ's by some. As Mike said, you kind of have to be aware of everything.

I know some of you are already pulling out rocks to throw at me for not tossing and I'm sure some of your replies may have been more, um, aggressive... but I know the coaches, the league, and the general tone of that game... This is how I decided to handle this one.

I don't think there was a reason to eject in your situation. Well Handled.

You guys have 10U open bases? We start at 12 U with balks and IFF and D3k(UC3K)

[SnareDrum]

I don't think there was a reason to eject in your situation. Well Handled.

You guys have 10U open bases? We start at 12 U with balks and IFF and D3k(UC3K)

It's the City "competitive" division and they want to "compete" OBR style, so we oblige them (USSSA sanctioned as well, forgot to mention). It's till 10U though, so that weighs in on some of the situations. Our Rec division has no-leadoffs, no IFF, run limits, etc...

[stl_ump]

Fighting? Who were the coaches fighting with? Can I assume this was not "litlle kid" baseball?

First I don't track ejections but I have very few. I have a reputation of tossing when needed so consequently I toss very little. We discuss ejections here a lot and many of us recommend ejecting in certain cases. The problem is in many leagues umpires have a tendency not to toss, which allows coaches to become more emboldened. Some guys stay around for years and because of longivity umpires become less likely to toss which makes coaches get worse. There are coaches like that in my area and I never have problems with them because they know to behave when I work.

I am not saying go out and be a redass, just take care of business. I am authoritative and confident but I also am very relaxed and approachable. I do not like guys that go out with a chip on their shoulder or confrontational attitude. To be successful you can't be a doormat but you can't go looking for trouble.

This is an excellent post by Mike.....I do track ejections but just as another item I track in my game journal. The current journal I am using only goes back to 2002. I believe I have a reputation of if a coach or player needs to go, They go......I dont not pass on a probelm child or coach onto the next crew...........and also like mike, I feel I have a low ejection rate....

that being said, in my journal, I show 17 ejections in the last 9 years. here is the breakdown:

Coaches: 7

Players: 10

7 Coaches ejected for:

Arguing Balls and Strikes: 2

Profanity 2

Fighting 2

Prolonged demonstration 1

10 Players ejected for:

Arguing balls and strikes 2 (1 pitcher-1 batter)

Fighting 2

Profanity 2

Throwing equipment 1

Malicious Contact 3

9 years- 702 ball games.....

[JaxRolo]

I have seen 10u coaches fighting on the mound after a game

[jnazz]

Only coaches I ever have to eject are 10U coaches. They just insist on getting the last word.

Let them have the last word. By letting them get in the last word, they think they've won the argument. If they think they've won the argument, they'll leave and likely leave the situation be. There is no upside (as an umpire) to insist on having the last word.

[Stan W.]

Fighting? Who were the coaches fighting with? Can I assume this was not "litlle kid" baseball?[

No, this was PONY summer league....13-14 yr olds..... and as you can imagine it was with each other........

arguement started early on in the game behind the backstop......erupted on field during an inning change.....

[mtnump]

Interesting night last night... 10U Competitive division with lots of travelling and try-out teams. 1st place team is getting shelled and the coaches are getting aggravated. I have a called 3K right down the middle of the plate & thigh high to end their inning. As the 1B coach is walking by he quietly asks, "How far off the plate was it?" I honestly, and also quietly said, "I'm not quite sure what you mean coach... you mean that last one down the middle?" He said, "Well the catcher was set-up outside." My reply, but in a slightly deeper tone: "Indeed he was, but the pitch was right over the middle." He just nodded and walked off, not happy, but he walked away. If he doesn't walk, then we would have a problem. The decision I made was to let HIM turn it into an argument. He didn't.

Next inning, ... I had one out and after a 6-3 grounder for the 2nd out, the defense of the 1st place team and the stranded R2 (who did not run) leave the field. Immediately from behind me, I hear, "That's only 2". Quickly, all 3 scorekeepers agreed. Apparently, the 3B coach had asked my BU how many outs and had been told there were 2 (I had a chat with him later). So we bring everybody back, and the DC comes over. "He told us there were two so we should be out of the inning. You should go by what he told us" I told him, "I understand. But Coach, the right call is there are two outs NOW. Would you rather us blow it, or get it right." Again a nod and leave. During the next changeover, both of their coaches came over and more or less said they were sorry for being so cranky that night, but their team was playing like crap and they were more than aggravated. I knew that, and I told them that "I don't mind intensity, just insanity."

After the game, all the coaches came by for a handshake, and the former first place team's manager shook it with a pat on my back as he said, "Great job at taking control of everything."

There were a couple of other little things during the game (a call by me for batter INT, and the other coach and balk and non-balks...), but these are two that I could easily see escalating into EJ's by some. As Mike said, you kind of have to be aware of everything.

I know some of you are already pulling out rocks to throw at me for not tossing and I'm sure some of your replies may have been more, um, aggressive... but I know the coaches, the league, and the general tone of that game... This is how I decided to handle this one.

Nicely done! By handling confidently you avoided escalating the situation and the ensuing EJ(s). Glad the coaches acknowledged your efforts.:cheers:

[mazzamouth]

0 for me... in 6 DI games and a 25 HS games...and 5 JUCO/NAIA

[Umpire in Chief]

While my game count this year is way down for a couple of reasons, knock on wood I haven't had any.

I had I situation where a coach called time and walked over tome, "Warren, this is killing me."

Me playing dumb, "Why what's up?"

Coach, "Those pitches are too low to be strikes."

"Really, _______ you think they're to low? And you wanted to call time to come over here and discuss balls and strikes?" (On the hook)

"Yes, you can't be calling those pitches below the knees strikes."

"And you wanted to call time to discuss the strike zone with me?" (Sinking the hook)

"Those pitches are way too low."

"Well, I have those hitting the bottom of the zone and I'm going to keep calling them" (Had to cut the line, he was so oblivious he had no clue of the game I was playing it just wasn't fun)

[mstaylor]

Warren:

I had a buddy umpiring a travel tournament and the manager comes down to have basically the same argument. He tells the coach that arguing balls and strikes isn't going to happen. He wants to start again when Chuck shu him dwn and told him it wasn't going to happen, go back to the box. He asks if he can ask another question. Chuck says not if it's about the zone. He tries to start a question about three times, about chews his lip off and finally walked away. As the commercial says, "Priceless!"

[jflores]

In 5 years - 2 Coach Ejections & 1 Player Ejection for Malicious Contact.