D62 blue Posted March 9 Report Posted March 9 Here's an interesting play that occurred recently nfhs game. Bottom 8 tied, 0 outs , bases loaded winning run walked in. BU watches BR touch 1st,R1 2nd,R2 3rd all good. R3 touches plate . Team begins to celebrate and all base runners, players run & gather out behind first base shallow RF celebrating. BU begins walking off the diamond, and observes the catcher pursuing the winning team celebration " huddle". Alert that something must be happening. BU watching the catcher randomly begin tagging celebrating players. Then BU turns his attention back to the plate area, and hears the PU say something to the effect with the word "appeal" in the sentence. PU call time, and calls out the winning walk off walk Runner on appeal. This was a noisy , fluid & chaotic scene keep in mind . The 2 umpires get together in conference after getting everything calmed down. And confirm that indeed the winning run missed HP!!. Winning coach states that they have video, which we advise cannot be viewed or used. So now the question is how do you as the umpires proceed with this situation? I'll let the group comment awhile, before disclosing how this situation was resolved. Marc 1 Quote
noumpere Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 Assuming PU judged R3 missed the plate and BU can't help, then call out R3, return the other runners (that is, to the bases they reached because of the walk), proceed with the next batter. 3 Quote
jimurrayalterego Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 2 hours ago, D62 blue said: Here's an interesting play that occurred recently nfhs game. Bottom 8 tied, 0 outs , bases loaded winning run walked in. BU watches BR touch 1st,R1 2nd,R2 3rd all good. R3 touches plate . Marc Did R3 touch? You say BU watched bases so you have his testimony. Did you not get PU's testimony? Quote
The Man in Blue Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 I want to agree with @noumpere, but there is one part of the OP I find troubling: 3 hours ago, D62 blue said: Alert that something must be happening. BU watching the catcher randomly begin tagging celebrating players. That is a fishing expedition, not an appeal, and I am not stopping my walk off the field for that. 1 Quote
noumpere Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 9 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: I want to agree with @noumpere, but there is one part of the OP I find troubling: That is a fishing expedition, not an appeal, and I am not stopping my walk off the field for that. I am assuming that F2 or the HC said something like, "he missed the plate" and then F2, not knowing what to do, went out to the huddle. Quote
D62 blue Posted March 10 Author Report Posted March 10 7 hours ago, noumpere said: I am assuming that F2 or the HC said something like, "he missed the plate" and then F2, not knowing what to do, went out to the huddle. That seems like a reasonable presumption to me. Quote
D62 blue Posted March 10 Author Report Posted March 10 17 hours ago, jimurrayalterego said: Did R3 touch? You say BU watched bases so you have his testimony. Did you not get PU's testimony? PU confirmed R3 missed HP Quote
BigBlue4u Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 There is only one question: Did the home plate umpire see R3 miss home plate? If the answer is "yes," the run does not count. If the answer is "no," the run counts. Quote
Velho Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 15 minutes ago, BigBlue4u said: Did the home plate umpire see R3 miss home plate? If the answer is "yes," the run does not count. Then what? Reset the runs as @noumpere said? Weren't all the other runners tagged while not in contact with a base? Quote
jimurrayalterego Posted March 10 Report Posted March 10 48 minutes ago, Velho said: Then what? Reset the runs as @noumpere said? Weren't all the other runners tagged while not in contact with a base? This is why OBR and NCAA simplify game ending. Is the ball live or dead? If live the PU called time without being asked by the appealing team. He then ruled on a dead ball appeal. Was there live ball tags of other runners? Should abandonment be called on the other runners? Quote
The Man in Blue Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 7 hours ago, BigBlue4u said: There is only one question: Did the home plate umpire see R3 miss home plate? If the answer is "yes," the run does not count. If the answer is "no," the run counts. Only with a proper appeal. Did we have a proper appeal with the catcher running around tagging random members of the other team? Quote
dumbdumb Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 5 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: Only with a proper appeal. Did we have a proper appeal with the catcher running around tagging random members of the other team? so, with the catcher holding the ball and considered eligible although he is not in fair territory and he wants to have some fun while the players are all at the plate celebrating, and then he says, mr umpire, and starts touching everyone for the missed base since they are all in a huddle around the plate, yes. when would the team have to put all players on mound and go by the starting of play with the ump pointing to pitcher and saying play and that procedure starting up again, versus the touching all the players. Quote
noumpere Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: Only with a proper appeal. Did we have a proper appeal with the catcher running around tagging random members of the other team? It's a HS game. Accept and rule on the verbal appeal. 2 Quote
BLWizzRanger Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 7 hours ago, The Man in Blue said: Only with a proper appeal. Did we have a proper appeal with the catcher running around tagging random members of the other team? I don't know? Doesn't the rule book say something about multiple appeals making it a 'travesty'? 1 Quote
Velho Posted March 11 Report Posted March 11 There were no outs so F2 actions aren't crazy. Even with a verbal appeal on R3 missing HP, defense wants the outs on 2 of R2, R1, BR. They haven't missed a base so no verbal appeal can apply. You can plead (not appeal) for abandonment but tagging them off the base is much simpler. Assuming proper appeal of R3 missing HP and off the base tag of two runners, does anyone have a different answer than the CSFP approach of calling R3 out, placing all others runners back on their bases, and play on with bases loaded, 1 out? Quote
The Man in Blue Posted March 13 Report Posted March 13 On 3/11/2026 at 7:29 AM, noumpere said: It's a HS game. Accept and rule on the verbal appeal. Agreed. However the OP did not contain a verbal appeal. On 3/9/2026 at 6:24 PM, D62 blue said: Here's an interesting play that occurred recently nfhs game. Bottom 8 tied, 0 outs , bases loaded winning run walked in. BU watches BR touch 1st,R1 2nd,R2 3rd all good. R3 touches plate . Team begins to celebrate and all base runners, players run & gather out behind first base shallow RF celebrating. BU begins walking off the diamond, and observes the catcher pursuing the winning team celebration " huddle". Alert that something must be happening. BU watching the catcher randomly begin tagging celebrating players. Then BU turns his attention back to the plate area, and hears the PU say something to the effect with the word "appeal" in the sentence. PU call time, and calls out the winning walk off walk Runner on appeal. This was a noisy , fluid & chaotic scene keep in mind . The 2 umpires get together in conference after getting everything calmed down. And confirm that indeed the winning run missed HP!!. Winning coach states that they have video, which we advise cannot be viewed or used. So now the question is how do you as the umpires proceed with this situation? I'll let the group comment awhile, before disclosing how this situation was resolved. Marc Quote
The Man in Blue Posted March 13 Report Posted March 13 On 3/11/2026 at 5:45 AM, dumbdumb said: so, with the catcher holding the ball and considered eligible although he is not in fair territory and he wants to have some fun while the players are all at the plate celebrating, and then he says, mr umpire, and starts touching everyone for the missed base since they are all in a huddle around the plate, yes. when would the team have to put all players on mound and go by the starting of play with the ump pointing to pitcher and saying play and that procedure starting up again, versus the touching all the players. No. And no. NFHS. Dead ball appeal works. Saying "Mr.Umpire?" and tagging everybody is not a valid appeal. We allow multiple valid appeals, we do not allow guessing games and fishing expeditions. An appeal must be specific and purposeful (though some here will argue otherwise). Quote
The Man in Blue Posted March 13 Report Posted March 13 On 3/11/2026 at 10:26 AM, Velho said: There were no outs so F2 actions aren't crazy. Even with a verbal appeal on R3 missing HP, defense wants the outs on 2 of R2, R1, BR. They haven't missed a base so no verbal appeal can apply. You can plead (not appeal) for abandonment but tagging them off the base is much simpler. Assuming proper appeal of R3 missing HP and off the base tag of two runners, does anyone have a different answer than the CSFP approach of calling R3 out, placing all others runners back on their bases, and play on with bases loaded, 1 out? If you have a missed plate and a proper appeal, put everybody back. I know there is the debate about the rulebook not ruling the ball dead at the presumed end of the game, but no, just no. But let's keep going down this absurd road . . . R3 missed home plate, so you are going to rule him out. However, R2, believing the game to be over and running to the plate to celebrate, steps on home plate BEFORE the catcher gets all handsy with everybody. Now where do we go? "Coach, yes, we are going to rule R3 out, but I hate to tell you R2 scored." In this case, the coach is going to argue the ball was dead and the run shouldn't score. So why should we allow him to tag everybody? 1 1 Quote
D62 blue Posted March 16 Author Report Posted March 16 On 3/9/2026 at 4:24 PM, D62 blue said: Here's an interesting play that occurred recently nfhs game. Bottom 8 tied, 0 outs , bases loaded winning run walked in. BU watches BR touch 1st,R1 2nd,R2 3rd all good. R3 touches plate . Team begins to celebrate and all base runners, players run & gather out behind first base shallow RF celebrating. BU begins walking off the diamond, and observes the catcher pursuing the winning team celebration " huddle". Alert that something must be happening. BU watching the catcher randomly begin tagging celebrating players. Then BU turns his attention back to the plate area, and hears the PU say something to the effect with the word "appeal" in the sentence. PU call time, and calls out the winning walk off walk Runner on appeal. This was a noisy , fluid & chaotic scene keep in mind . The 2 umpires get together in conference after getting everything calmed down. And confirm that indeed the winning run missed HP!!. Winning coach states that they have video, which we advise cannot be viewed or used. So now the question is how do you as the umpires proceed with this situation? I'll let the group comment awhile, before disclosing how this situation was resolved.After Marc The umpire crew using csfp, placed the runners back on base . Resumed the game, with 1 out bases loaded. Next batter sac fly, walk off rbi to win . The game was protested, which ultimately was denied. after discussing with several other officials, including the HS unit IC . It was mutually agreed that this situation was handled fairly. Could not find any case play or any other similar play where this has occurred in any umpire mechanics manual . Furthermore all of the runners that advanced properly to the next base. Believed the game was over and won when they left their base to celebrate with the team. This further reinforces the ruling on the field of csfp . There are some good lessons to be learned from this play scenario. Most likely will never happen again in my career. 1 Quote
The Man in Blue Posted March 16 Report Posted March 16 CSFP? Glad it all worked out and seemed to have been handled properly! Quote
jimurrayalterego Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 59 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said: CSFP? Glad it all worked out and seemed to have been handled properly! Time for NFHS to adopt OBR/NCAA game ending run award rule. NCAA saw the light a few years ago and adopted OBR. I'm not sure NCAA have guidance on how to enforce it though. Quote
Velho Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 21 minutes ago, jimurrayalterego said: Time for NFHS to adopt OBR/NCAA game ending run award rule. In this case how does it change things since R3 missed HP? Quote
jimurrayalterego Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 54 minutes ago, Velho said: In this case how does it change things since R3 missed HP? Good point. And a twist to OBR/NCAA rule that I don't know how it would be adjudicated although I think @noumpere would require an appeal whereas the OBR rule would have the PU call R3 out for refusing to touch HP. The "refusing" part is up to debate and, regarding the B-R, Brennan Miller would call out the batter for not advancing to 1B without asking him and being refused. I believe the OBR rule was to simplify game ending and NCAA actually has that as the reason they changed to OBR. It is not as simple as we/they think. It won't matter as those levels don't have third world plays, until they do. An example is the security guard throwing a live ball back at game over and MLB umps quoting the wrong rule. 1 1 Quote
Richvee Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 Common sense and fair play. Call out R3 on appeal, put the runners on the bases, bases loaded one one, let's go. What do we expect the baserunners to do after touching the next base?? Stand there indefinitely because maybe R3 missed home? When are they "allowed" to leave and join the celebration? And the defense protested why? Because they wanted a triple play after all the base runners advanced, touched the next base and then started celebrating? While in the dogpile should the baserunners have all been aware an appeal was going on on R3 and they needed to scamper back to their bases? C'mon... 2 Quote
Richvee Posted March 17 Report Posted March 17 I think the more interesting play is R3, 2 outs, ball 4 wild pitch. R3 scores, BR doesn't go to 1B. Quote
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