Pickoff & Windup

[Jack_Wick]

Guys, I saw this video with a friend and it sparked a never-ending discussion.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXYun7suPeA

 

In this video, the author says he stepped off the rubber first, but it doesn't seem like it to me. Anyway, could he make a move like that from the windup position without stepping off the rubber or not?

Set rules: OBR

We're talking about a right-handed pitcher here.

All of this from Stretch position:

1. The spin move to 2B can also be done without a dash, right?

2. The spin move (always to 2B) is counterclockwise, but can it also be done clockwise? I mean, do a reverse spin move, that is, in the direction of the inside move?

3. The inside move is done clockwise, but I don't think it's legal to do it counterclockwise or not?

All of this from Windup position:

We know that without stepping off the rubber (pitcher's plate) the pitcher can make a pickoff, but how would you do it?

1. Can you pickoff to second base from a counterclockwise windup, like a spin move?

2. Can you always make a pickoff to 2B from the windup as a kind of inside move? That is, lifting your leg as if you were pitching but then turning and going towards 2B.

3. Basically, can you turn to pick from the windup position either clockwise or counterclockwise?

4. From windup to 1B you simply step to 1B and throw, right?

5. From windup to 3B you can step to 3B and throw, right? But could you also try lifting your leg, like you're pitching, but then throw to 3B? Like it's some kind of inside move.

 

Thanks

[Velho]

36 minutes ago, Jack_Wick said:

the author says he stepped off the rubber first

No, they did not.

This is an undeclared windup from a sideways position.

 

Vai via clanker

[noumpere]

I hate to get involved, but I've been away for about 10 days so,

1) The rules say nothing about counter-clockwise or clockwise.  If one is legal, the other is legal.

2) If a move is legal for a LH pitcher to first, it's legal for a RH pitcher to third.

 

That should answer most of the questions above.  Follow-up not desired.

[Jack_Wick]

14 hours ago, noumpere said:

1) The rules say nothing about counter-clockwise or clockwise.  If one is legal, the other is legal.

2) If a move is legal for a LH pitcher to first, it's legal for a RH pitcher to third.

So if the pitcher lifts his leg, he can only pickoff to 3B, 2B, or go to HB, correct? Once he crosses the rubber, he can only pickoff to 2B, in the clockwise direction, or pitch to the batter. Finally, if once his foot crosses the rubber again, he can only throw to home plate (that is, he can no longer pickoff), am I right?

14 hours ago, noumpere said:

That should answer most of the questions above.  Follow-up not desired.

What do you think of my questions about pickoffs from the windup position? It's a rarely discussed topic, yet it would be appropriate for a right-handed pitcher to stand in the windup position if he has a runner on 1B. But the rules for making a pickoff from the windup position are unclear.

[Jay R.]

What about this is unclear?

[Velho]

7 minutes ago, Jay R. said:

What about this is unclear?

You're arguing with a toaster. Don't feed the robotic troll.

[MadMax]

6 hours ago, Velho said:

You're arguing with a toaster. 

[Jack_Wick]

Yes, that part is quite understandable. So I propose several game scenarios:

All cases will be with a right-handed pitcher and in the windup position, without stepping off the rubber.

 

CASE A:

The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to second base then, continuing to turn counterclockwise, steps and throws to 3B for a pickoff. Legal?

 

CASE B:

The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home but he fakes a pickoff to second base then, turning clockwise this time, steps and throws to 1B for a pickoff. Legal?

 

CASE 😄

C.1. from windup position

The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, continuing to circle clockwise, steps and throws to pickoff to 1B. Legal?

C.2. the same from stretch position

 

CASE 😧

D.1. from windup position

The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, it will only be to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) to second base or pitch to home, correct? Anyway he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, turning counterclockwise this time, steps and throws to pickoff to 3B. Legal?

D.2. the same from stretch position

 

 

 

I believe all cases can be legal; there's nothing that violates the rules here. But I'm not so sure about it. Some of my friends agree with me, others don't. The problem with baseball is that even among the professionals, many don't really know the rules. So they continue to play the same way as a hundred years ago, without any innovation or perhaps without more spectacular and, above all, legal moves.

[Jack_Wick]

Anyway, during the service the fielders can't be in the penalty area, right?

[BigBlue4u]

On 10/13/2025 at 5:28 AM, Jack_Wick said:

What do you think of my questions about pickoffs from the windup position? It's a rarely discussed topic, yet it would be appropriate for a right-handed pitcher to stand in the windup position if he has a runner on 1B. But the rules for making a pickoff from the windup position are unclear.

I know the NFHS gets ripped all the time about its various rules differences with MLB.   But here is a case where the NFHS has it right.  First, the NFHS rule that if a pitcher's pivot foot is parallel with the pitcher's plate, he is in a set position.  Second, is the NFHS rule that prohibits a pitcher to throw to a base from the windup position.

[jimurrayalterego]

5 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

I know the NFHS gets ripped all the time about its various rules differences with MLB.   But here is a case where the NFHS has it right.  First, the NFHS rule that if a pitcher's pivot foot is parallel with the pitcher's plate, he is in a set position.  Second, is the NFHS rule that prohibits a pitcher to throw to a base from the windup position.

NFHS does have it right for their cohort of well schooled to unschooled umpires regarding this and dead ball balks.

[Jack_Wick]

Sorry, I typed it wrong. I told my brother to type it, but he wrote the wrong message. I wanted, or rather, I hoped, that someone would simply answer my questions, assuming there are any answers to them. 

 

I'll add another question: 

1. From the windup position: 

if I fake a pickoff at second base (turning counterclockwise), can I then turn either clockwise or counterclockwise toward third base to throw the ball there? Because if you read rule (a)(1) comment, no one ever says how or why, so I consider everything legal as long as you step and throw, or not? Regardless of how you do it and in which directions you do it, or is there some other interpretation out there in the jungle of rules outside of the rulebook? 

 

2. From the set position (or even the windup position): 

I try to turn like an inside move, but instead of making a pickoff toward second base, I continue to turn and make, still following a clockwise direction, a pickoff toward first base. Would this be legal? If not, why? What rule or interpretation prevents it?

 

Please, I'm just looking for simple answers, not insults or Terminator-style conspiracies.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Jack_Wick said:

Sorry, I typed it wrong. I told my brother to type it, but he wrote the wrong message. I wanted, or rather, I hoped, that someone would simply answer my questions, assuming there are any answers to them. 

 

I'll add another question: 

1. From the windup position: 

if I fake a pickoff at second base (turning counterclockwise), can I then turn either clockwise or counterclockwise toward third base to throw the ball there? Because if you read rule (a)(1) comment, no one ever says how or why, so I consider everything legal as long as you step and throw, or not? Regardless of how you do it and in which directions you do it, or is there some other interpretation out there in the jungle of rules outside of the rulebook? 

 

2. From the set position (or even the windup position): 

I try to turn like an inside move, but instead of making a pickoff toward second base, I continue to turn and make, still following a clockwise direction, a pickoff toward first base. Would this be legal? If not, why? What rule or interpretation prevents it?

 

Please, I'm just looking for simple answers, not insults or Terminator-style conspiracies.

We really need to see what you're talking about. I'm having a hard time envisioning some of this. Plus...Where are the runners? What are they doing?This will matter, as will what direction you start your free foot towards, what direction it lands in, and what you subsequently do with your pivot foot.  For example, in #2, are you saying you"re picking up your free foot, and turning 270 degrees to throw to 1B without the pivot foot disengaging?? That would be one amazing right knee joint you've got there. 

[Velho]

[noumpere]

17 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

Sorry, I typed it wrong. I told my brother to type it, but he wrote the wrong message. I wanted, or rather, I hoped, that someone would simply answer my questions, assuming there are any answers to them. 

 

I'll add another question: 

1. From the windup position: 

if I fake a pickoff at second base (turning counterclockwise), can I then turn either clockwise or counterclockwise toward third base to throw the ball there? Because if you read rule (a)(1) comment, no one ever says how or why, so I consider everything legal as long as you step and throw, or not? Regardless of how you do it and in which directions you do it, or is there some other interpretation out there in the jungle of rules outside of the rulebook? 

 

2. From the set position (or even the windup position): 

I try to turn like an inside move, but instead of making a pickoff toward second base, I continue to turn and make, still following a clockwise direction, a pickoff toward first base. Would this be legal? If not, why? What rule or interpretation prevents it?

 

Please, I'm just looking for simple answers, not insults or Terminator-style conspiracies.

The problem is that the questions are unnecessarily complicated, and eve when answered you come back with the same question or variations that don't matter.  Go to an umpire clinic and pay attention, silently, when they talk about balks.

For the latest two questions:

1) Once you feint to second and break contact with the rubber, you are an infielder.  You can feint or throw to any base in any manner.

2) Once the free foot is raised, F1 must throw (or feint, where allowed) to the base being faced, second, or pitch.  Once the free foot crosses the rubber, F1 must throw (or feint) to second or pitch.

 

[Velho]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

The problem is that the questions are unnecessarily complicated,

Yes, because you are talking to ChatGPT. This is not a person.

[BigBlue4u]

On 10/22/2025 at 10:53 AM, Jack_Wick said:

Sorry, I typed it wrong. I told my brother to type it, but he wrote the wrong message. I wanted, or rather, I hoped, that someone would simply answer my questions, assuming there are any answers to them. 

Wait a minute, Jack.  This is an umpire website.  We don't blame brothers here, we blame umpires.

[Jack_Wick]

Please let's proceed in order.

 

All these questions about pickoff from windup position are remained unanswered. Could these questions be answered?:

"All of this from Windup position:

We know that without stepping off the rubber (pitcher's plate) the pitcher can make a pickoff, but how would you do it?

1. Can you pickoff to second base from a counterclockwise windup, like a spin move?

2. Can you always make a pickoff to 2B from the windup as a kind of inside move? That is, lifting your leg as if you were pitching but then turning and going towards 2B.

3. Basically, can you turn to pick from the windup position either clockwise or counterclockwise?

4. From windup to 1B you simply step to 1B and throw, right?

5. From windup to 3B you can step to 3B and throw, right? But could you also try lifting your leg, like you're pitching, but then throw to 3B? Like it's some kind of inside move."

 

After all my cases posted above, which I believe are all legal.

"All cases will be with a right-handed pitcher and in the windup position, without stepping off the rubber.
 
CASE A:
The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to second base then, continuing to turn counterclockwise, steps and throws to 3B for a pickoff. Legal?
 
CASE B:
The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home but he fakes a pickoff to second base then, turning clockwise this time, steps and throws to 1B for a pickoff. Legal?
 
CASE 😄
C.1. from windup position
The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, continuing to circle clockwise, steps and throws to pickoff to 1B. Legal?
C.2. the same from stretch position
 
CASE 😧
D.1. from windup position
The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, it will only be to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) to second base or pitch to home, correct? Anyway he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, turning counterclockwise this time, steps and throws to pickoff to 3B. Legal?
D.2. the same from stretch position "

 

On 10/23/2025 at 2:00 PM, noumpere said:

For the latest two questions:

1) Once you feint to second and break contact with the rubber, you are an infielder.  You can feint or throw to any base in any manner.

2) Once the free foot is raised, F1 must throw (or feint, where allowed) to the base being faced, second, or pitch.  Once the free foot crosses the rubber, F1 must throw (or feint) to second or pitch.

I knew this too but in the rules, OBR, there is none of this. It is only said about step and throw, stop. Furthermore, if a pitcher made an inside move I don't understand why it would be illegal to turn further and throw to first base clockwise instead .

However, is there a sequence of legal and non-legal actions of this kind also for the pitcher in the windup position?

On 10/22/2025 at 9:29 PM, Richvee said:

We really need to see what you're talking about. I'm having a hard time envisioning some of this. Plus...Where are the runners? What are they doing?This will matter, as will what direction you start your free foot towards, what direction it lands in, and what you subsequently do with your pivot foot.  For example, in #2, are you saying you"re picking up your free foot, and turning 270 degrees to throw to 1B without the pivot foot disengaging?? That would be one amazing right knee joint you've got there. 

I'm speaking from a purely theoretical standpoint. 

Obviously, let's assume there are runners, and therefore all these pickoff attempts are aimed at putting them out. Would such a pitch be legal? Would a pickoff from this type of pitch be legal? https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw

 

PS. For the moderators, can you please delete my message "Anyway, during the service, the fielders can't be in the penalty area, right?" 

PPS. For those who don't feel like responding, could you please refrain from filling the thread with useless posts

[noumpere]

All the cases have been answered.

[Jack_Wick]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

All the cases have been answered.

No, none of the questions I reposted have been answered. If someone had answered me, we'd be done right away.

[Richvee]

The only way you can pick from a windup is a jump turn, or a step directly to the base. if you have lifted the free foot in windup,that would imply you already took a rocker step to start the delivery, so, after that rocker step, you are obligated to deliver a pitch without hesitation or alteration. And remember...all this is OBR or NCAA...High school rules allow NO pickoffs from a windup position. 

[noumpere]

19 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

No, none of the questions I reposted have been answered. If someone had answered me, we'd be done right away.

1) Once you feint to second and break contact with the rubber, you are an infielder.  You can feint or throw to any base in any manner.

[Jack_Wick]

On 10/26/2025 at 2:48 AM, Richvee said:

The only way you can pick from a windup is a jump turn, or a step directly to the base. if you have lifted the free foot in windup,that would imply you already took a rocker step to start the delivery, so, after that rocker step, you are obligated to deliver a pitch without hesitation or alteration. And remember...all this is OBR or NCAA...High school rules allow NO pickoffs from a windup position

No, you could actually lift your free foot slightly and then step to 1B, which is legal. You could also turn and go to 2B, or go to 3B. But why would an inside move be illegal? Who says so? Where? 

 

Which of my examples would be illegal? 

 

"We know that without stepping off the rubber (pitcher's plate) the pitcher can make a pickoff, but how would you do it? 

 

1. Can you pickoff to second base from a counterclockwise windup, like a spin move? 

2. Can you always make a pickoff to 2B from the windup as a kind of inside move? That is, lifting your leg as if you were pitching but then turning and going towards 2B. 

3. Basically, can you turn to pick from the windup position either clockwise or counterclockwise? 

4. From windup to 1B you simply step to 1B and throw, right? 

5. From windup to 3B you can step to 3B and throw, right? But could you also try lifting your leg, like you're pitching, but then throw to 3B? Like it's some kind of inside move"

 

 

Of cases 1, 2, 3 (both from windup and set position), 4 (both from windup and set position), which would be illegal and why?

 

"All cases will be with a right-handed pitcher and in the windup position, without stepping off the rubber.
 
CASE 1:
The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to second base then, continuing to turn counterclockwise, steps and throws to 3B for a pickoff. Legal?
 
CASE 2:
The pitcher is turning counterclockwise with his free foot crossing the back of the rubber. The moment the free foot crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (counterclockwise) towards second base or pitch to home but he fakes a pickoff to second base then, turning clockwise this time, steps and throws to 1B for a pickoff. Legal?
 
CASE 3
3.1. from windup position
The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, the pitcher will only be allowed to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) towards second base or pitch to home, correct? But he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, continuing to circle clockwise, steps and throws to pickoff to 1B. Legal?
3.2. the same from stretch position
 
CASE 4
4.1. from windup position
The pitcher is turning clockwise by lifting his free foot and then crossing the back of the rubber, always clockwise. The moment the free foot is lifted or crosses the back of the rubber, it will only be to make a pickoff (clockwise this time) to second base or pitch to home, correct? Anyway he fakes a pickoff to 2B and then, turning counterclockwise this time, steps and throws to pickoff to 3B. Legal?
4.2. the same from stretch position "

 

 

5.Furthermore, if a pitcher made an inside move I don't understand why it would be illegal to turn further and throw to first base clockwise instead .

 

6. Would a pitch executed like this be legal? 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw

 

Please answer each case individually, otherwise nothing will ever be understood.

 

23 hours ago, noumpere said:

1) Once you feint to second and break contact with the rubber, you are an infielder.  You can feint or throw to any base in any manner.

But I mean the pitcher did not break contact.

[noumpere]

13 minutes ago, Jack_Wick said:

 

 

5.Furthermore, if a pitcher made an inside move I don't understand why it would be illegal to turn further and throw to first base clockwise instead .

 

6. Would a pitch executed like this be legal? 

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/8gGHQlz1EBw

 

Please answer each case individually, otherwise nothing will ever be understood.

 

But I mean the pitcher did not break contact.

5 (and the response to my comment). Because it's not an immediate / direct move to a base (or whatever the specific wording is).

 

Back when the 3-1 move was legal, it was specifically stated that to be legal F1 had to break contact on the move to third.  The same is true on any move to second

 

(I did not follow the link in 6)

[Jack_Wick]

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

(and the response to my comment). Because it's not an immediate / direct move to a base (or whatever the specific wording is).

Technically an inside move to 2B or to 1B (clockwise) would be the same thing.

So from a windup postion you can make a pickoff:

1. Towards 1B only by stepping counterclockwise?

2. Towards 2B only by stepping counterclockwise, and would it also be legal to do it clockwise? But why is it that from the set position you can do both the inside move (even as if you were starting the pitching motion clockwise) and the jump turn (counterclockwise), while in the windup position you can only turn counterclockwise?

3. Towards 3B only clockwise and without lifting the free foot?

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

Back when the 3-1 move was legal, it was specifically stated that to be legal F1 had to break contact on the move to third.  The same is true on any move to second

Technically, that's not true. You can fake a pickoff toward one base and, without stepping off the rubber, throw the ball to another base. But it's unclear how this can be done or in what direction.

From 2019 NFHS case book plays 6.2.4:

6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING:  This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk.

Although it is a federal regulation and not OBR so I don't know to what extent these NFHS interpretations are valid for OBR?

4 hours ago, noumpere said:

did not follow the link in 6

It's a new type of pitch but I don't know if it's legal or not although it should be legal as it doesn't violate any rules, at least I think so.

[jimurrayalterego]

2 hours ago, Jack_Wick said:

 

Although it is a federal regulation and not OBR so I don't know to what extent these NFHS interpretations are valid for OBR?

 

Only FED allows the pitcher to remain engaged, awkward as that might be, in the third to first move. As @noumpere said, when feints were allowed to 3B in OBR and NCAA you had to break contact in feinting to 3B before feinting or throwing to 1B.