Jack_Wick

Hi men I would like to ask how this situation is handled under OBR, NCAA, and FED rules: A pitcher feints a pickoff attempt toward second base while remaining engaged with the rubber. He then performs a second feint toward second base by taking another step toward the base. Is this legal or not? Once a pickoff feint to second base has been made, is it permissible to perform another feint while staying engaged with the rubber? If so, how should it be done? Is another step required?

Thank you so much. Really thorough. So would a rocker step sideways or forward be illegal?

Look, all you have to do is turn around and take a step without any momentum, and you'll easily remain in contact with the rubber. It's truly bizarre to say it's physically impossible. Have you seen the other videos? Especially this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg2F9ibksOo second: 2.55 - 2.59 OR 3.20-3.24 and this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAGjIp_Gnvs 0.04 The pivot foot could have remained stationary if he hadn't moved it intentionally. Since I don't want to seem annoying, I'll leave this question to those of good will who might want to answer: After a fake to 2B, still engaged in rubber, what must the pitcher do to be able to pitch to homebase again, or throw to a base, or feint to a base? What is the official rule or interpretation?

I quoted you in the other thread Fed & Throw FED "F1, who has feinted to second and remains in contact with the rubber, can: 1. turn to his right and throw to first 2. turn to his left and throw or feint to third" You say it wouldn't be legal to turn 270 degrees because it wouldn't be a direct/immediate step. BUT if from the windup position a RHP turned clockwise to take a step and a pickoff to second base, as if it were an inside move but from the windup position, could this step also be considered non-direct? On the other hand, could a direct step be just a counterclockwise step, or not? We have two fairly similar situations: 1. A RHP (FED rules) feinted to 2B and, in this position facing 2B, turns 270° to make a pickoff to 3B. This would be illegal because it would not be a direct/immediate step. Another situation: 2. (OBR Rules) A RHP from the windup position makes a clockwise pickoff to 2B, here he turns 180° clockwise. Would this also be legal? You told me yes, I think so too, but isn't it much different from the 270° turn in the first situation, or not? From the windup position, would the most direct immediate step be a counterclockwise one, or not? 3. Another more convincing situation is from set position, where an RHP makes a counterclockwise pickoff, turning 270° toward 2B. In reality, a clockwise step would be more direct. Wouldn't that also be an immediate direct step, or would it? Thank you

In this short video https://www.youtube.com/shorts/if9WnA0bDHE (1-3), the pitcher remains engaged with the rubber every time, never breaking contact with it. He simply disengages from the rubber afterwards by moving his pivot foot backward. So it doesn't seem so unrealistic to me. The point here is normative; that is, is there a rule that establishes what is legal or not after a pickoff fake to 2B? I'm afraid there probably isn't a rule, much less an official interpretation. The coach next to me explained to me that, without disengaging from the rubber, if the pitcher has separated his hands while faking the pickoff, then, if he doesn't disengage first, he could be balked for having joined his hands twice. BUT he himself added that the feint doesn't require arm movement, so you could also keep your hands together, although it would be completely ineffective. In short, he concludes that there is essentially no rule or interpretation that would prevent the pitcher from returning to the windup or set position without first having to disengage from the rubber. Is he right or not? Other video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-9zBGMMg3M: second 1.23-1.25 / 2.13-2.15 Other one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg2F9ibksOo second 2.55-2.59 3.20-3.25 Here, for example, without the swing of his arm he could have easily remained with his pivot feet on the rubber... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFWbCSKg73s For example, furthermore, if during the 3to1 move it was not so realistic that the foot would NOT break contact with the rubber then why would Evans and the other interpretation have specified the opposite? One simple thing to consider: it's a pickoff fake, so the only thing required is to take a step toward second base; not even arm movement is required, so if someone were to make a very static movement like that, without the momentum that simulates a throw, it would be absolutely realistic to think that someone could stay in contact. The simple question is: is there a rule or interpretation? If so, fine; if not, it's up to you to decide at random.

So the 360 pitch would be legal as long as the pivot foot doesn't break contact with the rubber while rotating? However, during the repositioning of the standard pivot foot during the windup movement, does the pivot foot still not break contact with the rubber, or should it never do so?

But even case play books predict situations where, after a pickoff feint, the pivot foot might remain in contact with the rubber. So, it's not entirely unrealistic. Well, theoretically, referring only to official rules and interpretations, what would the procedure be for a pitcher to return to pitching toward home base? From 2019 NFHS case book plays 6.2.4: 6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING: This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk. OR 6.1.5 SITUATION: With R3 and R1, F1 steps and feints to third and then steps and throws to first attempting to pick off R1. The throw goes into dead-ball territory. The offensive team’s coach wants a balk to be called because the pitcher never threw the ball toward third. RULING: When the pitcher stepped off the pitching plate in his feint to third, he became an infielder. Hence, when his throw goes into dead-ball territory, all runners are awarded two bases. R3 gets home and R1 gets third. Had F1 stayed on the pitching plate during his feint to third and his throw to first, all runners would be awarded one base. R3 would get home and R1 would get second. This would not be a balk as F1 made a legal feint and a legal pickoff attempt with no prior motion to pitch.

"Rule 5.07(a) Comment: [...] The pitcher may not take a second step toward home plate with either foot or otherwise reset his pivot foot in his delivery of the pitch." 1.1. What is this second step? 1.2. What is meant by "reset"? But then: "Rule 5.07(1) [...] He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward and one step forward with his free foot." 1.3. What is the first step backward? 1.4. What is the second step forward? But didn't the comment above prohibit it? 1.5. Can more than one rocker step be taken? 1.6. In what direction can a rocker step be taken? Forward, backward, or sideways? 1.7. Why "he shall not raise either foot"? Does the pitcher actually not lift his free foot? Don't you lift your foot to make a pickoff? Pivot Foot 2. Must the pivot foot remain in contact with the pitcher's plate all along? During windup motion, after the rocker step, does the pivot foot lose contact with the rubber to position itself parallel to the rubber, or not (seconds 0.30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go0Lq1qQrxU)? OR do you have to rotate the pivot foot without ever breaking contact with the rubber? Free foot stance 3. Pitching positions of the feet: in Umpirebible they say: "The free foot can be beside the rubber, but not in front of it. Some portion of the free foot must be touching or behind the red line marking the front of the pitching rubber" BUT in the rules: "In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.", so what has changed? Does the free foot, in OBR, have to be in contact with the red line marking the front of the pitching rubber? Thank you

That's not the point. It doesn't matter if it's something you don't see often or it's uncomfortable. The only thing that matters here is: is it legal or not? So, to summarize the question: A RHP faked a pickoff to 2B, never breaks contact with the rubber the entire time and never will. Now, from this position (now he is facing 2B) in OBR, he can't make another pickoff or another feint pickoff (legal in FED) in the same continuous movement (feint to 2B and in the same movement pickoff to 3B), and obviously he can't turn quickly to pitch to home plate. BUT, could he: 1. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then resume his pitching motion? 2. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then make a pickoff or a feint pickoff? OR before either pitching to home plate or making another pickoff (or feint) does he MUST necessarily step off the rubber and then re-engage with it? If so, what official rule or interpretation supports this?

You're right, but in a game it should be legal or not, I don't think there's any room for opinion. So, is it absolutely necessary to step off the rubber and then re-engage with it before pitching to home plate, or not? That is, if a pitcher, after making a legal fake pickoff, without ever breaking contact with the rubber, turns around, gets back into set or windup position, and then begins the pitching motion again, would it be a balk?

It's the same move I posted. Honestly, I didn't really understand that part of the article. Why might it be legal, and why might it not be?

Ok. But if RHP fakes to 3B and, after that, he could turn either clockwise or counterclockwise and then step towards 1B and throws to 1B, right? So he should step off the rubber and then he should re-engage with it, right? Couldn't he do otherwise?

A coach explained it to me differently. This applies to both Feint & Throw and Feint & Pitch (https://umpire-empire.com/topic/83267-feint-pitch/) He told me that both Evans' and MLBUM's interpretations only explain the situation of a continuous action/movement of a fake to 2B and then a throw to 1B/3B. A continuous Fake>Throw motion would be illegal in OBR (not in FED), so it would require the pitcher to break contact with the rubber before throwing to 1B/2B/3B or faking to 2B again. But he explained to me that after a fake to 2B, in which a pitcher remains in contact with the rubber the entire time, the pitcher could, without ever disengaging from the rubber, turn around, reposition himself (in set or windup position), pause, and then from there do whatever he wants again: pitch to home, pickoff feint to a base, disengage. Would this explanation be correct? Essentially, the interruption of the feinting action towards 2B and the return to the normal throwing position consists of the repositioning and the pause but NOT necessarily the disengagement and reengagement in the ruber. So both of the following sequences are legal: First of all, in all this the pitcher remains in contact with the rubber the entire time. 1. Legal feint to 2B > he turns and repositions himself (set or windup position) > he pauses briefly > he is back in a legal position from which he can pitch/throw/fake again. 2. Legal feint to 2B > he steps off the rubber and then engages it > he can now pitch/throw/fake again. Is he right? I'm so confused.

@noumpere @maven They says it is legal Why? https://www.closecallsports.com/2019/02/pitcher-spins-away-from-batter-legal.html

Ok, perfect as usual. A. But why in F1, who has feinted to second and remains in contact with the rubber, could not also: Turn to his left (a 270° rotation) and throw to first base Turn to his right (a 270° rotation) and throw or feint to third base ? B. Once he has feinted to second and remains in contact, how should he get back in condition to pitch to home base? Can he reposition himself and, perhaps after a pause, pitch to home base, or should he necessarily step off the rubber and re-engage with the rubber?