Jack_Wick

A right-handed pitcher makes a feint toward second base. While doing so, he lifts his pivot foot off the rubber to gain momentum, but then his pivot foot lands on the rubber again. Would he be considered disengaged or not? PS. Which rule allows you to disengage simply by lifting your foot off the rubber? (I mean without having to step the pivot foot behind the rubber) Thanks everyone.

Hi men I would like to ask how this situation is handled under OBR, NCAA, and FED rules: A pitcher feints a pickoff attempt toward second base while remaining engaged with the rubber. He then performs a second feint toward second base by taking another step toward the base. Is this legal or not? Once a pickoff feint to second base has been made, is it permissible to perform another feint while staying engaged with the rubber? If so, how should it be done? Is another step required?

Thank you so much. Really thorough. So would a rocker step sideways or forward be illegal?

Look, all you have to do is turn around and take a step without any momentum, and you'll easily remain in contact with the rubber. It's truly bizarre to say it's physically impossible. Have you seen the other videos? Especially this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg2F9ibksOo second: 2.55 - 2.59 OR 3.20-3.24 and this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAGjIp_Gnvs 0.04 The pivot foot could have remained stationary if he hadn't moved it intentionally. Since I don't want to seem annoying, I'll leave this question to those of good will who might want to answer: After a fake to 2B, still engaged in rubber, what must the pitcher do to be able to pitch to homebase again, or throw to a base, or feint to a base? What is the official rule or interpretation?

I quoted you in the other thread Fed & Throw FED "F1, who has feinted to second and remains in contact with the rubber, can: 1. turn to his right and throw to first 2. turn to his left and throw or feint to third" You say it wouldn't be legal to turn 270 degrees because it wouldn't be a direct/immediate step. BUT if from the windup position a RHP turned clockwise to take a step and a pickoff to second base, as if it were an inside move but from the windup position, could this step also be considered non-direct? On the other hand, could a direct step be just a counterclockwise step, or not? We have two fairly similar situations: 1. A RHP (FED rules) feinted to 2B and, in this position facing 2B, turns 270° to make a pickoff to 3B. This would be illegal because it would not be a direct/immediate step. Another situation: 2. (OBR Rules) A RHP from the windup position makes a clockwise pickoff to 2B, here he turns 180° clockwise. Would this also be legal? You told me yes, I think so too, but isn't it much different from the 270° turn in the first situation, or not? From the windup position, would the most direct immediate step be a counterclockwise one, or not? 3. Another more convincing situation is from set position, where an RHP makes a counterclockwise pickoff, turning 270° toward 2B. In reality, a clockwise step would be more direct. Wouldn't that also be an immediate direct step, or would it? Thank you

In this short video https://www.youtube.com/shorts/if9WnA0bDHE (1-3), the pitcher remains engaged with the rubber every time, never breaking contact with it. He simply disengages from the rubber afterwards by moving his pivot foot backward. So it doesn't seem so unrealistic to me. The point here is normative; that is, is there a rule that establishes what is legal or not after a pickoff fake to 2B? I'm afraid there probably isn't a rule, much less an official interpretation. The coach next to me explained to me that, without disengaging from the rubber, if the pitcher has separated his hands while faking the pickoff, then, if he doesn't disengage first, he could be balked for having joined his hands twice. BUT he himself added that the feint doesn't require arm movement, so you could also keep your hands together, although it would be completely ineffective. In short, he concludes that there is essentially no rule or interpretation that would prevent the pitcher from returning to the windup or set position without first having to disengage from the rubber. Is he right or not? Other video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-9zBGMMg3M: second 1.23-1.25 / 2.13-2.15 Other one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg2F9ibksOo second 2.55-2.59 3.20-3.25 Here, for example, without the swing of his arm he could have easily remained with his pivot feet on the rubber... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFWbCSKg73s For example, furthermore, if during the 3to1 move it was not so realistic that the foot would NOT break contact with the rubber then why would Evans and the other interpretation have specified the opposite? One simple thing to consider: it's a pickoff fake, so the only thing required is to take a step toward second base; not even arm movement is required, so if someone were to make a very static movement like that, without the momentum that simulates a throw, it would be absolutely realistic to think that someone could stay in contact. The simple question is: is there a rule or interpretation? If so, fine; if not, it's up to you to decide at random.

So the 360 pitch would be legal as long as the pivot foot doesn't break contact with the rubber while rotating? However, during the repositioning of the standard pivot foot during the windup movement, does the pivot foot still not break contact with the rubber, or should it never do so?

But even case play books predict situations where, after a pickoff feint, the pivot foot might remain in contact with the rubber. So, it's not entirely unrealistic. Well, theoretically, referring only to official rules and interpretations, what would the procedure be for a pitcher to return to pitching toward home base? From 2019 NFHS case book plays 6.2.4: 6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING: This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guilty of a balk. OR 6.1.5 SITUATION: With R3 and R1, F1 steps and feints to third and then steps and throws to first attempting to pick off R1. The throw goes into dead-ball territory. The offensive team’s coach wants a balk to be called because the pitcher never threw the ball toward third. RULING: When the pitcher stepped off the pitching plate in his feint to third, he became an infielder. Hence, when his throw goes into dead-ball territory, all runners are awarded two bases. R3 gets home and R1 gets third. Had F1 stayed on the pitching plate during his feint to third and his throw to first, all runners would be awarded one base. R3 would get home and R1 would get second. This would not be a balk as F1 made a legal feint and a legal pickoff attempt with no prior motion to pitch.

"Rule 5.07(a) Comment: [...] The pitcher may not take a second step toward home plate with either foot or otherwise reset his pivot foot in his delivery of the pitch." 1.1. What is this second step? 1.2. What is meant by "reset"? But then: "Rule 5.07(1) [...] He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward and one step forward with his free foot." 1.3. What is the first step backward? 1.4. What is the second step forward? But didn't the comment above prohibit it? 1.5. Can more than one rocker step be taken? 1.6. In what direction can a rocker step be taken? Forward, backward, or sideways? 1.7. Why "he shall not raise either foot"? Does the pitcher actually not lift his free foot? Don't you lift your foot to make a pickoff? Pivot Foot 2. Must the pivot foot remain in contact with the pitcher's plate all along? During windup motion, after the rocker step, does the pivot foot lose contact with the rubber to position itself parallel to the rubber, or not (seconds 0.30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=go0Lq1qQrxU)? OR do you have to rotate the pivot foot without ever breaking contact with the rubber? Free foot stance 3. Pitching positions of the feet: in Umpirebible they say: "The free foot can be beside the rubber, but not in front of it. Some portion of the free foot must be touching or behind the red line marking the front of the pitching rubber" BUT in the rules: "In the Windup Position, a pitcher is permitted to have his "free" foot on the rubber, in front of the rubber, behind the rubber or off the side of the rubber.", so what has changed? Does the free foot, in OBR, have to be in contact with the red line marking the front of the pitching rubber? Thank you

That's not the point. It doesn't matter if it's something you don't see often or it's uncomfortable. The only thing that matters here is: is it legal or not? So, to summarize the question: A RHP faked a pickoff to 2B, never breaks contact with the rubber the entire time and never will. Now, from this position (now he is facing 2B) in OBR, he can't make another pickoff or another feint pickoff (legal in FED) in the same continuous movement (feint to 2B and in the same movement pickoff to 3B), and obviously he can't turn quickly to pitch to home plate. BUT, could he: 1. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then resume his pitching motion? 2. Turn and legally reposition himself, take a short break, and then make a pickoff or a feint pickoff? OR before either pitching to home plate or making another pickoff (or feint) does he MUST necessarily step off the rubber and then re-engage with it? If so, what official rule or interpretation supports this?

You're right, but in a game it should be legal or not, I don't think there's any room for opinion. So, is it absolutely necessary to step off the rubber and then re-engage with it before pitching to home plate, or not? That is, if a pitcher, after making a legal fake pickoff, without ever breaking contact with the rubber, turns around, gets back into set or windup position, and then begins the pitching motion again, would it be a balk?

It's the same move I posted. Honestly, I didn't really understand that part of the article. Why might it be legal, and why might it not be?

Ok. But if RHP fakes to 3B and, after that, he could turn either clockwise or counterclockwise and then step towards 1B and throws to 1B, right? So he should step off the rubber and then he should re-engage with it, right? Couldn't he do otherwise?

A coach explained it to me differently. This applies to both Feint & Throw and Feint & Pitch (https://umpire-empire.com/topic/83267-feint-pitch/) He told me that both Evans' and MLBUM's interpretations only explain the situation of a continuous action/movement of a fake to 2B and then a throw to 1B/3B. A continuous Fake>Throw motion would be illegal in OBR (not in FED), so it would require the pitcher to break contact with the rubber before throwing to 1B/2B/3B or faking to 2B again. But he explained to me that after a fake to 2B, in which a pitcher remains in contact with the rubber the entire time, the pitcher could, without ever disengaging from the rubber, turn around, reposition himself (in set or windup position), pause, and then from there do whatever he wants again: pitch to home, pickoff feint to a base, disengage. Would this explanation be correct? Essentially, the interruption of the feinting action towards 2B and the return to the normal throwing position consists of the repositioning and the pause but NOT necessarily the disengagement and reengagement in the ruber. So both of the following sequences are legal: First of all, in all this the pitcher remains in contact with the rubber the entire time. 1. Legal feint to 2B > he turns and repositions himself (set or windup position) > he pauses briefly > he is back in a legal position from which he can pitch/throw/fake again. 2. Legal feint to 2B > he steps off the rubber and then engages it > he can now pitch/throw/fake again. Is he right? I'm so confused.

@noumpere @maven They says it is legal Why? https://www.closecallsports.com/2019/02/pitcher-spins-away-from-batter-legal.html

Ok, perfect as usual. A. But why in F1, who has feinted to second and remains in contact with the rubber, could not also: Turn to his left (a 270° rotation) and throw to first base Turn to his right (a 270° rotation) and throw or feint to third base ? B. Once he has feinted to second and remains in contact, how should he get back in condition to pitch to home base? Can he reposition himself and, perhaps after a pause, pitch to home base, or should he necessarily step off the rubber and re-engage with the rubber?

@noumpere @maven If anyone of good will would like to answer my questions, these are the questions: FED Rules 1. A RHP fakes a pickoff to 2B, still engaged at the rubber, and then he can throw to bases 2B/1B or 3B by turning in any direction? 1.1. To 1B, could the pitcher turn before throwing, either 90° clockwise or 270° counterclockwise? 1.2. To 2B, either directly, but does he have to step again first or not? Or can he also do a 360° turn, either clockwise or counterclockwise, and throw to 2B? 1.3. To 3B, either 90° counterclockwise or 270° counterclockwise and then throw to third base? 2. Once the RHP has faked to 2B, what must he do before he can throw to home plate again? Should he step off the rubber first or can he turn around, get into position and, without ever disengaging from the rubber, maybe take a break and then start his pitch move ment again?

Ok, perfect. So after a pitcher faked a pickoff to 2B (the only legal one) but is still engaged on the rubber, he can only disengage from the rubber. Without disengaging first, he cannot throw to a base or pitch to homebase, right? If so, that's it. Thank you very much.

Maybe I didn't explain myself well. The point here is: The pitcher legally fakes to 2B BUT DOES NOT break contact with the rubber, so now, without him stepping off the rubber first, what could he do? Basically nothing (throw or pitch) except disengage from the rubber? OR could he throw or fake again to 2B / throw to 1B/3B? I don't think so. BUT could he get back into position (he never left the rubber) and, after a brief pause, pitch to home? I didn't quite understand the whole procedure before he was able to pitch to home plate again.

So? How does it all work? Keeping in mind that we're referring to OBR rules, how should we conclude? Once a pitcher has faked a pickoff to 2B (the only legal base to which it can be done) but hasn't broken contact with the rubber, what should he do? The only option left is option 😄 "disengage the rubber (if he does, he must drop his hand to his sides)." Or what? Simply put, how does he reset his action? Because to make another pickoff, he simply steps off the rubber—okay, I understand that. But what should he do first to be able to pitch the ball to the batter again? PS. What do you think of my Feint & Throw FED thread, please?

simply mean that the pitcher fakes a pickoff toward 2B (the only legal one), but in doing so, his pivot foot doesn't break contact with the rubber. So in this position, still engaged to the rubber, the pitcher can't make another pickoff (or feint) until he steps off the rubber. Okay, perfect. But when and how will he be able to pitch to the batter again? PS. What do you think of my Feint & Throw FED thread, please?

No, in reality the rule written above is decidedly unclear. In fact, another forum writes a question exactly like mine like this: "8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when- (c) [...] rule wording you have quoted is somewhat confusing. A couple of Usenet umpire wannabes named Ryan Robbins and Scott Taylor drove Carl Childress right over the edge a few years ago debating this very point. The Robbins/Taylor mantra was, "This is legal." which they repeated ad infinitum. Despite the ambiguity in the rule and its casebook commentary, there is no ambiguity in the Jim Evans interpretation from his book, Baseball Rules Annotated, nor in the MLB Umpire Manual. Both resources clearly state the pitcher must break contact with the rubber in stepping to 3B when executing the "3rd to 1st" move." In short, I wasn't the only one who had legitimate doubts. So in summary we can say this: From the Windup Position, the pitcher may: (A) deliver the ball to the batter, or (B) step and throw to a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner, or (C) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). So we can add for precision: BUT once the pitcher fakes a pickoff to 2B (if still engaged to the rubber) then he can only: (A) deliver the ball to the batter, or (B) disengage the rubber (if he does he must drop his hand to his sides). The question can be considered closed but my question about Feint & Throw FED remains unanswered. Also the only question that remains is what's the ratio behind this rule addition? What's the point of necessarily having to remove the pivot foot first?

A RHP fakes a pickoff to 2B after remains still engaged in the rubber. Now can he now turn and pitch to the batter? 1) How much time does he have to do it? 2) Could he immediately turn and pitch to the batter? What would happen if he did it that quickly after the fake to 2B? 3) I don't think he has to come off the rubber before pitching to the batter, or not?

The point isn't whether I accept it or not. I'm not the right person to have this authority. I'm just looking for an official answer to a fairly common game situation. I asked for a reference to an official rule, and you kindly provided it. BUT this reference actually says the action is legal. So where would this limit come from? So we have Rule 8.05(c) Comment, which says that the sequence—faking a pickoff > still engaged at the rubber > turning and throwing to 1B/2B (again)/3B—is absolutely legal. Then we have Carl Childress asking PBUC if it's legal or not, and they say no. Do we have a scan or something official in writing about this request? Perhaps the meaning of their answer has been misunderstood. I found this too but I can't confirm whether they were taken literally or not. MLBUM: "Also, in the fake to third base, the pitcher must break contact with the rubber before throwing to first base." JEA: "On the "trick 3rd to 1st" move used by the righthander, the umpire should be especially alert for two criteria: (1) the pitcher may not break the back plane of the rubber with his free foot before attempting the feint to 3rd; and (2) in his feint to 3rd, he must break contact from the rubber with his pivot foot. Breaking the plane would be a balk in violation of 8.01(a) and failure to break contact would be a balk in violation of 8.01(c)...not a direct step from the rubber ("while touching his plate")." So, in the official rules, the move is legal, but in various authors' interpretations or comments, it's not legal. But I don't understand what the point is in not making the play legal without the pitcher stepping off the rubber before throwing to the same base or another? What difference does that make? I don't think it has anything to do with it. "Direct" means that the pass must be made directly to that base; it does NOT mean "first." Besides, the FED rules also say "direct," but the sequence without disengagement is legal anyway. So? Also, after faking a pickoff toward second base (still engaged on the rubber), what could you do? Could you only turn around and pitch the ball to the batter? But couldn't you make another pickoff if you didn't step off the rubber first? That doesn't seem very logical to me. PS. Wouldn't it be better if they scrapped all these micro-rules and created ONE official rulebook with a few, precise rules? I mean it's such a popular sport, but there's such a monstrous regulatory dispersion.

Rule 8.05(c) Comment, however, says something completely different. It explains that whenever a pickoff (or fake) is required, the player must take a step toward the target base before throwing (or faking). It does NOT say that after a fake, the player must be disengaged at the rubber, absolutely not. In fact, it adds that the fake toward 3B must be justified by a runner attempting to steal home base. So, reexamining everything, we have this: Runners at 3B and 1B. Pitcher makes a legal pickoff fake toward 3B NOT to deceive R1 BUT to stop R3 from advancing. Then, even if he were still engaged at the rubber (AS the FED interpretation also states), he can turn (I believe in any direction, clockwise or counterclockwise). THE IMPORTANT THING is that before throwing there, he takes a step toward 1B. Therefore, I believe that the sequence of feinting to 2B > still engaged or not > turning, in any direction, > step to 1B or 3B, is absolutely legal. The rule just says this: "It is obviously an attempt to deceive the runner at first base, and in such a move, it is practically impossible to step directly toward first base before the throw to first base, and such a move shall be called a balk." In this second scenario above, it is illegal only because the pitcher: 1. Fakes toward 3B without the runner doing anything but only to deceive R1. 2. Then turns and does not step toward 1B. So I believe this FED interpretation also applies to OBR as it is absolutely not in conflict with the above rule . "6.2.4 Situation C With R3 and R1, F1 comes set. He then feints toward third, or he removes one hand from the ball and makes an arm motion toward third but does not step toward third. He follows with a throw to first base. RULING: This is a balk. F1 must step toward third base when feinting there. F1 may not feint to first base. He must step toward the base and throw. He might, while he is on the plate, step toward occupied third and feint a throw, and then turn to step toward first and throw there with or without disengaging the pitcher’s plate. If F1 steps and feints to first, he must first disengage the pitcher’s plate or he is guil ty of a balk"