All Star FM4000 Steel vs. Magnesium Increased Usage - Why?

[Rock Bottom]

I don't have actual stats but I'm seeing a lot of FM4000 steel in the MLB this year. For example, the Angels catcher had one yesterday and the ump in their game tonight has the steel too. Obviously pros can afford to use whichever they want - is there a reason they are choosing steel over magnesium? (Note - they both appear to be using the mag bottom pad.)

[wolfe_man]

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[834k3r]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

that ought to drive more people towards the Mirage at GDS.

💯

Folks will point to the XTG of the Mirage as a major difference between the AS Mag and the Mirage. But I think the most significant difference--but yet understated--is the better visibility. I posted elsewhere here that I may sell my AS Mag because the vision through my Mirage is that much better.

[Velho]

2 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

I wonder if it's just people are so used to the thinner bars, they prefer it over the thick ones?  If so, that ought to drive more people towards the Mirage at GDS.

It did me as well

[DerekGDS]

I don't know if this is actually a significant factor or not but there are just some folks who hate those welds.

[Velho]

19 minutes ago, DerekGDS said:

I don't know if this is actually a significant factor or not but there are just some folks who hate those welds.

Aesthetically, mechanical integrity, or some other reason?

[LC Ump]

Agree with others who've commented about the increased/improved sight lines on the Mirage. A huge selling point in my book.

When I show the mask to other umpires they are immediately impressed by how light it is, which is a real selling point of course. They don't notice that other feature, but I always point it out in making the case that it's likely the best mask on the market right now.

[DerekGDS]

17 minutes ago, Velho said:

Aesthetically, mechanical integrity, or some other reason?

Purely from an aesthetics stand point. That weld doesn't compromise it at all, it is solid.

[MadMax]

1 hour ago, LC Ump said:

it's likely the best mask on the market right now.

… for umpires. I’m not correcting you, merely clarifying. The Mirage was designed  for umpires first and foremost. I’ve seen other “for umpire” masks used by catchers, such as the Diamond iX3-UMP (which has that tell-tale cap-button crown guard), and I will often twist my face at them (“How can you trash an umpire’s mask like that? There’s plenty of options for catcher-specific models!”), but ultimately, there’s nothing preventing them from doing so. 
On the other hand, the Mirage would likely confound a catcher, with the XCG annoyingly getting in the way of a good, habitual chin-tuck. 

We have no problem with that. 

17 hours ago, Rock Bottom said:

I don't have actual stats but I'm seeing a lot of FM4000 steel in the MLB this year. For example, the Angels catcher had one yesterday and the ump in their game tonight has the steel too.

As others have said, it all comes down to sightlines. The FM4K planform optimized geometric protection (Method 1 of 3); an impact’s energy is deflected as much as possible so it doesn’t hit squarely (perpendicularly). As such, the FM4K’s forehead section is ramped rather steeply – not an issue for catchers wearing their skullcaps backwards. All-Star never bothered to make the FM4K in titanium, because A) they could achieve similar lightweight-ness by using shaped hollow steel, arranged in a deflective geometry, and B) they could produce it at a much more affordable price-point in steel, comparative to its survivability.

So when All-Star commissioned the first die-cast magnesium mask, the Rampage planform was produced first, primarily as a physics / process exercise. Once witnessing and securing the process, All-Star adapted the FM4K planform to be rendered into magnesium. As a consequence of how the forehead section is shaped, they had to do the molds in two separate sections, welded together via steel inserts at the injection points – thus the ear tabs. The Rampage planform was retained by the manufacturer, and secured by Champro who ordered a production run. 

Despite how lightweight and “bend-or-break-less” the two are, they suffer from one particular characteristic – in order to resist impact stress, weld-free, the bars are rather deep (or broad, if you will). This makes them incredibly strong, but they create a “valley” effect, like you’re looking up in a valley, trench, or steep ravine, or looking through the vanes of shutters. Most catchers can overcome it, or be at ease with it, some can’t. 

With this in mind (amongst other things), @DerekGDS set to designing the Mirage reductively – that is to say, he roughed out the dimensions, and then pared back the bar depth, virtually shaving off more and more resin (on the prototypes), and then testing them to failure. Yeah, he went through a lot of resin prototypes, but what he achieved was the thinnest bars he could, able to withstand 140mph+ of impact. 

Catchers masks – which the FM4K steel & mag are, let’s not kid ourselves – are made to survive impact frequency. Tossed on the ground, thrown into dugouts, smooshed in gear bags, and hit by baseballs in a variety of velocities. An umpire mask, well taken care of, is only going to take those big impacts infrequently. As such, we want to produce a mask that is optimized for excellent visibility and survivability vs high-velocity impacts. 

[834k3r]

2 hours ago, MadMax said:

… for umpires. I’m not correcting you, merely clarifying. The Mirage was designed  for umpires first and foremost. I’ve seen other “for umpire” masks used by catchers, such as the Diamond iX3-UMP (which has that tell-tale cap-button crown guard), and I will often twist my face at them (“How can you trash an umpire’s mask like that? There’s plenty of options for catcher-specific models!”), but ultimately, there’s nothing preventing them from doing so. 
On the other hand, the Mirage would likely confound a catcher, with the XCG annoyingly getting in the way of a good, habitual chin-tuck. 

We have no problem with that. 

As others have said, it all comes down to sightlines. The FM4K planform optimized geometric protection (Method 1 of 3); an impact’s energy is deflected as much as possible so it doesn’t hit squarely (perpendicularly). As such, the FM4K’s forehead section is ramped rather steeply – not an issue for catchers wearing their skullcaps backwards. All-Star never bothered to make the FM4K in titanium, because A) they could achieve similar lightweight-ness by using shaped hollow steel, arranged in a deflective geometry, and B) they could produce it at a much more affordable price-point in steel, comparative to its survivability.

So when All-Star commissioned the first die-cast magnesium mask, the Rampage planform was produced first, primarily as a physics / process exercise. Once witnessing and securing the process, All-Star adapted the FM4K planform to be rendered into magnesium. As a consequence of how the forehead section is shaped, they had to do the molds in two separate sections, welded together via steel inserts at the injection points – thus the ear tabs. The Rampage planform was retained by the manufacturer, and secured by Champro who ordered a production run. 

Despite how lightweight and “bend-or-break-less” the two are, they suffer from one particular characteristic – in order to resist impact stress, weld-free, the bars are rather deep (or broad, if you will). This makes them incredibly strong, but they create a “valley” effect, like you’re looking up in a valley, trench, or steep ravine, or looking through the vanes of shutters. Most catchers can overcome it, or be at ease with it, some can’t. 

With this in mind (amongst other things), @DerekGDS set to designing the Mirage reductively – that is to say, he roughed out the dimensions, and then pared back the bar depth, virtually shaving off more and more resin (on the prototypes), and then testing them to failure. Yeah, he went through a lot of resin prototypes, but what he achieved was the thinnest bars he could, able to withstand 140mph+ of impact. 

Catchers masks – which the FM4K steel & mag are, let’s not kid ourselves – are made to survive impact frequency. Tossed on the ground, thrown into dugouts, smooshed in gear bags, and hit by baseballs in a variety of velocities. An umpire mask, well taken care of, is only going to take those big impacts infrequently. As such, we want to produce a mask that is optimized for excellent visibility and survivability vs high-velocity impacts. 

[Rock Bottom]

I was wondering if there was some issue with the magnesium.

[Rock Bottom]

I was wondering if there was some issue with the magnesium.

[wolfe_man]

...

[SeeingEyeDog]

@MadMax...(or anyone else, of course) so, do we have a consensus on the best (protective? comfortable? what are the metrics?) pads that pair with the Mirage? Any update on the state of GDS potentially offering pads themselves for this mask and how those might be constructed?

Also...best harness? Is the answer still UmpLife there?

~Dawg

[DerekGDS]

36 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

IMHO, no, cannot be.  All Star is an excellent company who thoroughly tests all of their gear before putting it out on the market.  If there was an issue, it would have been caught and fixed during testing and pre-sales.  If for any reason they did have an issue with production quality post-sale, they would stand behind it and fix them/replace them.

100% agree. I've also never heard of someone complaining their All-Star mag broke, was dented or anything like that and I've never seen a product that was poorly manufactured from them.
 

37 minutes ago, wolfe_man said:

What I'd really love is to see a couple of MLB guys get a hold of the Mirage and get their honest feedback. I know nothing of course, but I'm a bit surprised GD doesn't get (hasn't gotten) some sent to his old crew or close peers.  Can you imagine how sales would go if a few of them start wearing it as their main gamer?  I do realize that the primary market for GDS is amateur umpires, but seeing the Mirage every night on the big screen can't hurt anything either.

It's floating around AAA, we'll get there! 

[Rock Bottom]

2 hours ago, Rock Bottom said:

I was wondering if there was some issue with the magnesium.

I should have clarified, I meant I was wondering if it was an issue with magnesium more generally, not specific to All Star. I love that company and have two of the FM4000 steel, plus have bought a lot of other equipment and gloves of theirs. Although I have switched to the Mirage for my #1 mask, that's why I was wondering about magnesium generally. 

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies!

 

[MadMax]

9 hours ago, Rock Bottom said:

I meant I was wondering if it was an issue with magnesium more generally

[wolfe_man]

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[wolfe_man]

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[834k3r]

13 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@MadMax...(or anyone else, of course) so, do we have a consensus on the best (protective? comfortable? what are the metrics?) pads that pair with the Mirage? Any update on the state of GDS potentially offering pads themselves for this mask and how those might be constructed?

Also...best harness? Is the answer still UmpLife there?

~Dawg

FWIW, I rock tan TW pads and a UL harness with mine and it's amazing. I've seen folks here use several different pads all with equal success.

YMMV of course, but I think the lesson here is that use whatever pad/harness combo you want and it'll still be a fantastic mask.