Appeal at 1st when you're in position C on a flyball towards left-center (2-man)

[orangebird]

Howdy folks,

As you may have seen in my little league umpiring thread (check it out if you haven't) I worked my first game as the base umpire and encountered a situation that struck me as a pretty tricky encounter in a 2-man crew

The bases were loaded with less than two outs and a fly ball was hit into the cone but a bit to the left of CF where anything happening at 1B was pretty much totally out of my line of sight. After the ball was caught and thrown back in, the fielding team appealed to first and I simply admitted it wasn't in my line of sight and couldn't make a fair ruling on that decision.

My takeaway afterwards was that should be the plate umpire's responsibility (not blaming him, first game of the season for both of us) but I checked Umpire Bible and their page on two-man responsibilities from position C suggests the plate umpire should pay attention to third base in that kind of situation.

So...is there some way for 2 umpires to monitor 3 kids leaving early or not while also making the call on catch/no catch that I'm missing? Or did I simply begin my umpiring career with a pretty unlucky appeal that tested the limits of the 2-man system. 

[Velho]

14 minutes ago, orangebird said:

is there some way for 2 umpires to monitor 3 kids leaving early or not while also making the call on catch/no catch that I'm missing? Or did I simply begin my umpiring career with a pretty unlucky appeal that tested the limits of the 2-man system

This is on 60' field or larger?

 

I'll preemptively add: 2 man is imperfect. Prioritization is required.

[orangebird]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

This is on 60' field or larger?

 

I'll preemptively add: 2 man is imperfect. Prioritization is required.

60, 46 for the mound

[Velho]

Ok, so using LL mechanics:

- PU has the catch/no-catch

- PU has the tag up at 3rd

- BU has the tag-up at 2B & 1B and it's a case where you do what you can. Coming into the working area from outside, turning to see the timing of OF first touch and R2 & R1 position is hard (especially depending where the ball is). Prioritize 2B over 1B and then get ready for a play.

The ultimate exercise of "Chest to ball. Head on a swivel."

Also, you did right regarding the tag up appeal. You do the best you can but you still can't call what you didn't see. Runner gets the benefit of the doubt.

[orangebird]

3 minutes ago, Velho said:

Ok, so using LL mechanics:

- PU has the catch/no-catch

- PU has the tag up at 3rd

- BU has the tag-up at 2B & 1B and it's a case where you do what you can. Coming into the working area from outside, turning to see the timing of OF first touch and R2 & R1 position is hard (especially depending where the ball is). Prioritize 2B over 1B and then get ready for a play.

The ultimate exercise of "Chest to ball. Head on a swivel."

Also, you did right regarding the tag up appeal. You do the best you can but you still can't call what you didn't see. Runner gets the benefit of the doubt.

That's interesting, the official LL doesn't believe in the cone?

[SeeingEyeDog]

@orangebird, I don't know how 2-man LL mechanics differ from 2-man 90' mechanics but, remember in ANY situation in ANY game...when the ball is hit, the umpire(s) all have responsibilities and in MOST cases, they have somewhere to be. Someone has the ball, someone has the runner(s) and of course it varies on the situation.

• fair/foul
• catch/no-catch
• plays WITH the ball
• plays WITHOUT the ball

U1 is in the middle, and the ball is hit in the air IN the cone, U1 has catch/no-catch and PU gets the touch at 1B because U1 has eyes on the baseball. Was it caught or not? Was it over the fence fair? Was there spectator interference? Did a fielder throw his glove at the ball?

U1 is in the middle, and the ball is hit in the air OUTSIDE the cone, PU now has catch/no-catch and U1 gets the touch at 1B because PU has eyes on the baseball.

The rub is what to do when it's "on the edge" of the cone, right? The default action is...IT'S U1's baseball unless PU calls U1 off. Balls is hit, it's in the air to the outfield...U1 is turning to stay chest to ball...if PU doesn't call him off, it's U1's baseball and PU must get that touch at 1B!

Respectfully, guys go to pro school for what...8 weeks, 12 hours a day? And they still come out of pro school and have to let things happen to them on a baseball field in order to learn them. That is umpiring...for everyone, especially amateurs. This situation above is a situation I now pre-game with my partner and or crew. Why? Because it happened on a towering HR ball when I was in C with R3 and it was on the edge of the cone that my partner did not call me off of and by the time it was over the fence and I turned to get the touch at 1B, the batter-runner was well on his way to 2B. Defensive coach came out to appeal the touch. I got together with my partner and all I got on the touch was...crickets and a deer in the headlights. It never occurred to him to get the touch because he had eyes on the baseball too. We had no choice but to call him safe and allow the run to stand. Fortunately, it was not a game deciding HR but, it absolutely could have been and we still kicked it.

~Dawg 

[jimurrayalterego]

22 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

@orangebird, I don't know how 2-man LL mechanics differ from 2-man 90' mechanics but, remember in ANY situation in ANY game...when the ball is hit, the umpire(s) all have responsibilities and in MOST cases, they have somewhere to be. Someone has the ball, someone has the runner(s) and of course it varies on the situation.

• fair/foul
• catch/no-catch
• plays WITH the ball
• plays WITHOUT the ball

U1 is in the middle, and the ball is hit in the air IN the cone, U1 has catch/no-catch and PU gets the touch at 1B because U1 has eyes on the baseball. Was it caught or not? Was it over the fence fair? Was there spectator interference? Did a fielder throw his glove at the ball?

U1 is in the middle, and the ball is hit in the air OUTSIDE the cone, PU now has catch/no-catch and U1 gets the touch at 1B because PU has eyes on the baseball.

The rub is what to do when it's "on the edge" of the cone, right? The default action is...IT'S U1's baseball unless PU calls U1 off. Balls is hit, it's in the air to the outfield...U1 is turning to stay chest to ball...if PU doesn't call him off, it's U1's baseball and PU must get that touch at 1B!

Respectfully, guys go to pro school for what...8 weeks, 12 hours a day? And they still come out of pro school and have to let things happen to them on a baseball field in order to learn them. That is umpiring...for everyone, especially amateurs. This situation above is a situation I now pre-game with my partner and or crew. Why? Because it happened on a towering HR ball when I was in C with R3 and it was on the edge of the cone that my partner did not call me off of and by the time it was over the fence and I turned to get the touch at 1B, the batter-runner was well on his way to 2B. Defensive coach came out to appeal the touch. I got together with my partner and all I got on the touch was...crickets and a deer in the headlights. It never occurred to him to get the touch because he had eyes on the baseball too. We had no choice but to call him safe and allow the run to stand. Fortunately, it was not a game deciding HR but, it absolutely could have been and we still kicked it.

~Dawg 

Your PU didn't kick any mechanic I know of. I don't know what mechanics book you are using but all I know of have PU responsible for all touches and tags of 3B and HP except for BR at 3B. BU has all touches and tags of 2B and 1B and the BR at 3B. BU may not be able to get all of his responsibilities, but a head turn is still required. As PU I will brief that I will back you up at 1B if my responsibilities don't interfere with it but it stays your call.

[Richvee]

I feel the same. BU has this stuff at 1b unless PU has F/F down the FR line when what’s going on at 1B is right in front of him. . 
I just don’t want to muddy the waters say this is the case for 60 foot mechanics, because it’s been a long time, and I really don’t remember if they’re different. 

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, jimurrayalterego said:

Your PU didn't kick any mechanic I know of. I don't know what mechanics book you are using but all I know of have PU responsible for all touches and tags of 3B and HP except for BR at 3B. BU has all touches and tags of 2B and 1B and the BR at 3B. BU may not be able to get all of his responsibilities, but a head turn is still required. As PU I will brief that I will back you up at 1B if my responsibilities don't interfere with it but it stays your call.

Sure...absolutely, Jim. We all know there are a million scenarios in 2-man where because of higher prioritized responsibilities, PU can't get a touch at 1B. I submit this is not one of those scenarios.

~Dawg

[jimurrayalterego]

1 hour ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Sure...absolutely, Jim. We all know there are a million scenarios in 2-man where because of higher prioritized responsibilities, PU can't get a touch at 1B. I submit this is not one of those scenarios.

~Dawg

"U1 is in the middle, and the ball is hit in the air IN the cone, U1 has catch/no-catch and PU gets the touch at 1B because U1 has eyes on the baseball. Was it caught or not? Was it over the fence fair? Was there spectator interference? Did a fielder throw his glove at the ball?" This is wrong with any runner config. PU is not responsible for any touch/leave early at 1B. In some cases a good PU will back you up but what mechanic system are you using that has the PU responsible for 1B touch or leaving early?

[SeeingEyeDog]

I don't have a mechanics citation for you @jimurrayalterego. I have logic. If U1 is on the baseball (rightly or wrongly), PU has to read that and move to 1B extended, get the touch of R3 crossing the plate AND the touch of batter-runner at 1B. Alternatively, PU can call off U1, take the baseball...and now U1 has the touch of batter-runner at 1B.

Now yeah, you get a rocket, line drive HR that is definitively over the fence fair in that scenario before the batter-runner is halfway to 1B? Sure, U1 can take that baseball, see it down fair over the fence AND get the batter-runner's touch. But not on a moon shot, towering HR...

HS playoff games in my market will absolutely have 3-man and 4-man crews so, in high leverage games a play such as this will have more eyes on it. Yes, 2-man has limitations. I'm going to try mechanically (if I have no other responsibilities on a play) to reduce those limitations and I know you do, too brother.

~Dawg

[noumpere]

BOTH BU and PU can (BU must; a good PU should) glance at first to see if R1 is on the base (or returning to it) as the ball is coming down.  But, at the exact moment of the ball hitting the glove, no one can be looking at first.  Both BU and PU can then look back at first after the catch to see if R1 is still in the vicinity of the base (heck, if it's a clean catch, PU can often see R1's back foot still in the air).

[johnnyg08]

13 hours ago, orangebird said:

The bases were loaded with less than two outs and a fly ball was hit into the cone but a bit to the left of CF where anything happening at 1B was pretty much totally out of my line of sight. After the ball was caught and thrown back in, the fielding team appealed to first and I simply admitted it wasn't in my line of sight and couldn't make a fair ruling on that decision.

Sometimes they do it on purpose if they know that neither of you were watching. Give it a glance. Make sure you pregame your coverages. Oh, and most of the time, the runner didn't leave early. Or if they did, it's too tight to call w/o replay. 

[stevis]

13 hours ago, orangebird said:

That's interesting, the official LL doesn't believe in the cone?

Not at 60'.  PU takes all catch/no catch.

In your sitch, P has catch/no catch; they should position to see the catch and line up the tag of R3

BU should bust into the working area; line up the catch and tags of R2/R1 best they can.  I would get R2 in line of sight and snap my head over, assuming R1 could get a step off before I could get eyes on them and still have legally tagged.

[Velho]

13 hours ago, orangebird said:

That's interesting, the official LL doesn't believe in the cone?

Not in 2 man, no. Minimal need to since the OF isn't that far away - it's nearly the same as a deep SS from home plate on a 90' field. Plus, BU has to come into the working area so that the compromise. On a big field, BU turns around / has less movement for the cone.

fwiw, in 12 years and 250+ small field games I've never had a 3 runner tag up advance even attempted. You got a bingo card play i your first game.

[orangebird]

4 minutes ago, stevis said:

Not at 60'.  PU takes all catch/no catch.

In your sitch, P has catch/no catch; they should position to see the catch and line up the tag of R3

BU should bust into the working area; line up the catch and tags of R2/R1 best they can.  I would get R2 in line of sight and snap my head over, assuming R1 could get a step off before I could get eyes on them and still have legally tagged.

That does make sense for the size of the field but our training still wanted us to use the cone. However, after this play...might personally overrule them going forward haha 

[Velho]

6 minutes ago, orangebird said:

That does make sense for the size of the field but our training still wanted us to use the cone. However, after this play...might personally overrule them going forward haha 

Small field is NOT the big field. Being outside changes everything. I understand the logic but it's simply suboptimal to shrink down standard mechanics.

LL does more games than all the other league and levels combined. They have different mechanics for a reason.

[orangebird]

1 minute ago, Velho said:

Small field is NOT the big field. Being outside changes everything. I understand the logic but it's simply suboptimal to shrink down standard mechanics.

LL does more games than all the other league and levels combined. They have different mechanics for a reason.

Yeah our training did include the kids who'll work 70-foot and 80-foot games where I think some sort of clarification between the dimensions would've been helpful if the official Little League 60-feet rules don't support the cone

Could you or anyone else provide any official documents/videos/etc for that? Obviously believe y'all, just would like to see directly to see if there's any other gaps between our training and the official LL guidance for 60-foot diamonds

 

[orangebird]

13 minutes ago, Velho said:

Not in 2 man, no. Minimal need to since the OF isn't that far away - it's nearly the same as a deep SS from home plate on a 90' field. Plus, BU has to come into the working area so that the compromise. On a big field, BU turns around / has less movement for the cone.

fwiw, in 12 years and 250+ small field games I've never had a 3 runner tag up advance even attempted. You got a bingo card play i your first game.

Basically every play from both teams seemed to operate on the premise that no one could make an accurate throw from any real distance (and I can't disagree there) where it made sense to deploy the ole triple tag up play

[Velho]

20 minutes ago, orangebird said:

Could you or anyone else provide any official documents/videos/etc for that? Obviously believe y'all, just would like to see directly to see if there's any other gaps between our training and the official LL guidance for 60-foot diamonds

Best I can find. Simple statement "PU is responsible for all fly balls". This is part a play list that may be useful. I didn't;t go through them all so possible some changes but basics are still the basics*

* Well mostly. LL did remove pronouns this year. Try getting that out of your muscle memory 🤣

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcRNGdoiz4k&list=PLJFlmzN0LxYNn1kKJgnZn9Pxn4KTBXkNs&index=3

[jimurrayalterego]

10 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

I don't have a mechanics citation for you @jimurrayalterego. I have logic. If U1 is on the baseball (rightly or wrongly), PU has to read that and move to 1B extended, get the touch of R3 crossing the plate AND the touch of batter-runner at 1B. Alternatively, PU can call off U1, take the baseball...and now U1 has the touch of batter-runner at 1B.

~Dawg

If you are referring to a specific case of a possible HR with bases loaded doesn't the PU have R2's touch of 3B as well as R3's touch of HP? Yes, a good PU will back you up as best he can but U1, better known as BU in 2 man, should turn his head to see the BR even though the touch probably has already happened. If the 1B touch is appealed your PU will give you the "I have something" signal if he can help you.

But this blanket statement, "Someone has the ball, someone has the runner(s)" is totally incorrect. Someone has the ball and some runner(s) and the other one has the other runner(s) and both are aware of backing up the other if possible.

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, Velho said:

 LL did remove pronouns this year. Try getting that out of your muscle memory 🤣

Off topic, but since you brought it up...Helped at a training clinic yesterday. I was well aware of a few female cadets, and the fact that some are learning both softball and baseball. The amount of times I caught myself using him, the guy, he while referring to coaches, players, and umpires was horrifying...Even though I was aware and trying not to. 

[Velho]

26 minutes ago, Richvee said:

I was well aware of a few female cadets, and the fact that some are learning both softball and baseball. The amount of times I caught myself using him, the guy, he while referring to coaches, players, and umpires was horrifying...Even though I was aware and trying not to. 

I feel you. I encountered this at work many years ago. Took a bit but shifted my vernacular to "folks" from "guys".

As always "y'all" is ever useful too (picked that up living in Atlanta for a bit).

[stevis]

2 hours ago, Richvee said:

Off topic, but since you brought it up...Helped at a training clinic yesterday. I was well aware of a few female cadets, and the fact that some are learning both softball and baseball. The amount of times I caught myself using him, the guy, he while referring to coaches, players, and umpires was horrifying...Even though I was aware and trying not to. 

Perfection is the goal, never the reality.  Good on you for striving.

[834k3r]

"Coach, I didn't see him not tag up."