What rule cite for runner intentionally slapping held ball out of glove?

[Velho]

Assume F5 drops the ball in the below play.

If you call the runner out*, what rule cite (short of calling it MC) do you use when challenged by the OTHC?

LL has an out for not "attempting to get around a fielder who has the ball" so that would be easy.

Other than LL though ,which would you go with?

F5 had possession when the tagged occurred? Interference? If so, 6.01(a)(10) is for intentional interference with a thrown ball so it wouldn't be that - then what?

 

*Is that an ASS-YOU-mption that it's an out?

 

 

[SeeingEyeDog]

Assuming the ball was knocked out of the fielder's glove by the runner, hasn't the criteria for interference been met? The runner would have been hindering the fielder from making that play and by rule would be out.

~Dawg

[BLWizzRanger]

In my judgement on seeing this play 6 or 7 times now and not real time, the runner was doing a swim move to avoid the tag and there was no intentional interference here. It seems your main point was doing a rule check if your judgement saw the hand movement was intentional to slapping the ball out (and we can all learn on the rule check), but, I didn't see the intentional act here.  Am I missing something?  

[grayhawk]

In another thread, there was a question about applying the general interference rule on a play where a more specific rule should apply. This is the opposite - where no specific rule exists about a runner knocking the ball out of a fielder's glove (intentional or not @BLWizzRanger), we apply the general rule on interference (as @SeeingEyeDog said) which is found in definitions:

INTERFERENCE (a)  Offensive interference is an act by the team at bat which interferes with, obstructs, impedes, hinders or confuses any fielder attempting to make a play. 

If the ball had been knocked out of the fielder's glove, we have interference, runner out and all other runners return to their bases attainted at the time of the interference.

[BLWizzRanger]

How is that different than a low tag on a runner standing up and the ball is kicked out? Or even a slide into a base and the ball is dislodged?

[Velho]

2 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

In my judgement on seeing this play 6 or 7 times now and not real time, the runner was doing a swim move to avoid the tag and there was no intentional interference here.

On this play, personally, I see an intentional attempt to slap the glove. I base that on the direction of the hand movement and the intensity of the movement. Just my judgment. YMMV.

To the extent intent is a ruling factor (I'll let @grayhawk speak to his statement regarding intentional vs unintentional) that would obviously be a judgment the umpire has to make.

[Richvee]

Memories....

 

[Jimurray]

57 minutes ago, Velho said:

On this play, personally, I see an intentional attempt to slap the glove. I base that on the direction of the hand movement and the intensity of the movement. Just my judgment. YMMV.

To the extent intent is a ruling factor (I'll let @grayhawk speak to his statement regarding intentional vs unintentional) that would obviously be a judgment the umpire has to make.

Intent is a factor. MLBUM has an interp regarding 6.01 and Definition of Interference. "While contact may occur..............a runner is not allowed to use his hands or arms...............such as intentionally slapping at the baseball.............unrelated to running the bases......"   I would judge the OP use of the arm was not intentional and it was related to running the bases and trying to reach the base.

[ArchAngel72]

Was gonna say the A-rod rule?

 

[Richvee]

39 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Was gonna say the A-rod rule?

 

If memory serves, I think the @Jimurray cite was indeed added after the A-Rod incident.

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Richvee said:

If memory serves, I think the @Jimurray cite was indeed added after the A-Rod incident.

The wording of that cite is in a 2004 PBUC I have so I think it was prior to A-Rod.

[Richvee]

8 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

The wording of that cite is in a 2004 PBUC I have so I think it was prior to A-Rod.

My memory often does not serve. 

[BigBlue4u]

9 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

In my judgement on seeing this play 6 or 7 times now and not real time, the runner was doing a swim move to avoid the tag and there was no intentional interference here. It seems your main point was doing a rule check if your judgement saw the hand movement was intentional to slapping the ball out (and we can all learn on the rule check), but, I didn't see the intentional act here.  Am I missing something?  

Yes.  With all due respect, the perception here, in my judgment, is clearly interference.  Why? Look at the runner's right hand.  If the runner is trying to get his hand to the base, why would he raise it so high in the air?  If the coach comes out to argue, the question to the coach would be, "What was your runner trying to do?" If he says his runner was trying to get to the base, your reply is simple, "Well, coach, that's not what happened."

[dumbdumb]

21 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Intent is a factor. MLBUM has an interp regarding 6.01 and Definition of Interference. "While contact may occur..............a runner is not allowed to use his hands or arms...............such as intentionally slapping at the baseball.............unrelated to running the bases......"   I would judge the OP use of the arm was not intentional and it was related to running the bases and trying to reach the base.

come on @Jimurray--give them the whole manual for them to peruse page 49 in the below addition.

here is the 2019 edition that every MLBU gets, which is kinda like an extra case book (that we do not get from MLB). now if you got a more recent edition bring it on. and to CYA on my own CMA, everything in the 2019 version could have had every single line changed even with just one word, in comparison to the 2024 edition, wherever that edition is, much less the 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 editions. let everyone see what that book looks like. a little insider information. and no, i do not have any copy of MLBU manual, i just googled the words and this below came up.

https://cdn1.sportngin.com/attachments/document/d73f-3191917/2019_MLB_Umpire_Manual-1.pdf

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, dumbdumb said:

come on @Jimurray--give them the whole manual for them to peruse page 49 in the below addition.

 

Page 49 is page 35 in the interps section.

[BLWizzRanger]

Yes.  With all due respect, the perception here, in my judgment, is clearly interference.  Why? Look at the runner's right hand.  If the runner is trying to get his hand to the base, why would he raise it so high in the air?  If the coach comes out to argue, the question to the coach would be, "What was your runner trying to do?" If he says his runner was trying to get to the base, your reply is simple, "Well, coach, that's not what happened."

Well, if he is doing a swim move, trying to get around a tag, the arm would go up.

Wonder what it looked like in the C...

Sent from my SM-F721U1 using Tapatalk

[dumbdumb]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Page 49 is page 35 in the interps section.

thanks. you are as right as rain. interpretation #49 starts on page 34 of this 2019 version, with the offensive interference Rule 6.01 definition section, along with other interpretation numbers that continues on page 35. that is in this 2019 version above.

page 49 has pitching interpretations and this is from the 2019 version above, which may be totally different from previous or later versions.

if you got a later year version, where can we get it. it should have more up to date information, although a lot of the 2019 version here, may still be current (who knows), with the caveat that interpretation numbers and page numbers may not match up exactly.