Teammate assists runner who missed the plate

[grayhawk]

Happened today in A's @ Angels:

https://x.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1806079493930418453

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, grayhawk said:

Happened today in A's @ Angels:

https://x.com/TalkinBaseball_/status/1806079493930418453

I checked it out on MLB.com. Home broadcast had my ears bleeding, "contact...blah, blah". Switched to away broadcast and same thing. They reviewed the miss of HP and Porter's poorly worded announcement will probably have everyone thinking the ump called the out for the miss. Game was still in process but I stopped watching but this would be or would have been a great opportunity for Jeff Nelson to school the announcers.

Slightly off topic, checkout both F1 and F2 with heads down not even seeing the miss.

[johnnyg08]

You all beat me to it. Here's a video. 

 

[grayhawk]

36 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

You all beat me to it. Here's a video. 

Not sure why this site embeds tweets in some cases and not others.

[Jimurray]

13 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

Not sure why this site embeds tweets in some cases and not others.

@johnnyg08 clip adds the terrible Porter explanation anyway. My newsfeed just had a NY Post article about the runner being out because of contacting Alvarez. I was going to say un effing believable but it is actually believable.

[The Man in Blue]

I am very interested to hear more of a breakdown on this.

First, I would not call that assisting a runner.  The runner was already stopping and heading back.  Nothing the scored runner did altered that.

Second, can somebody point me to the rule cite?  I am finding a coach touching and assisting, but not anybody else.  I'm sure I am overlooking it.  Searching "assist" is not pulling anything else up.  Searching "other than a runner" only pulls up hindrance on a fielder making a play.

Third, Porter's announcement on the challenge was interesting.  He confirmed the runner did not touch home plate.  I did not see a defensive appeal and he made no reference to the assistance.

[The Man in Blue]

. . . and it is up . . .

 

[Jimurray]

24 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I am very interested to hear more of a breakdown on this.

First, I would not call that assisting a runner.  The runner was already stopping and heading back.  Nothing the scored runner did altered that.

Second, can somebody point me to the rule cite?  I am finding a coach touching and assisting, but not anybody else.  I'm sure I am overlooking it.  Searching "assist" is not pulling anything else up.  Searching "other than a runner" only pulls up hindrance on a fielder making a play.

Third, Porter's announcement on the challenge was interesting.  He confirmed the runner did not touch home plate.  I did not see a defensive appeal and he made no reference to the assistance.

First, he was but that was an added physical assist.

Second, It's not a rule. It's a WUM and MiLB interp that surprised us all when we saw this called circa post 2011. NFHS then put out a similar interp. I believe NCAA does not rule like this. You can now start your rant.

Third, yes that was bad.

[johnnyg08]

I dropped the WUM interpretation in the video description when I uploaded it. 

[Jimurray]

12 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

. . . and it is up . . .

 

Totally off base. It doesn't matter if it's a retired runner and that rationale is in error. Any other teammate, such as the on deck batter, would also be at risk of assisting and causing the out.

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, johnnyg08 said:

I dropped the WUM interpretation in the video description when I uploaded it. 

Thanks to @Senor Azul a few years ago:

"OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  No member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, can physically assist a runner in advancing or returning to a base. 

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.8, p. 100):

…A runner is allowed to assist another runner physically; however, all other members of the offensive team (e.g., base coaches, on-deck batter, a runner who had just scored or has been put out, a batter, etc.) are not allowed to assist…"

Minor point about mechanics. PU killed it but you should leave the ball alive when assist takes place.

[The Man in Blue]

19 hours ago, Jimurray said:

You can now start your rant.

Third, yes that was bad.

Not a rule.

I would have no issue with this call if it was supported by something other than MSU at a high level.   And yes, that is what that is, even if it makes sense.

Re: Porter … I’m curious what the coach asked for to be reviewed.  I’m guessing that something not in the rulebook is probably not on the “reviewable” list.  Porter did not mention interference, just that they confirmed the runner missed the plate.
 

 

[grayhawk]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

Re: Porter … I’m curious what the coach asked for to be reviewed.  I’m guessing that something not in the rulebook is probably not on the “reviewable” list.  Porter did not mention interference, just that they confirmed the runner missed the plate.

I would think they asked to review whether or not the runner touched the plate, which would have made the physical assistance call moot. That's also likely the only reviewable part of this play, unless they went for a rules check. 

[Jimurray]

12 minutes ago, grayhawk said:

I would think they asked to review whether or not the runner touched the plate, which would have made the physical assistance call moot. That's also likely the only reviewable part of this play, unless they went for a rules check. 

Based on previous threads we have Paronto saying that would be a correct call in NCAA and then I believe changing his mind. @grayhawk had a confusing response from Bruns a while back also so what say ye?

[The Man in Blue]

3 hours ago, grayhawk said:

I would think they asked to review whether or not the runner touched the plate, which would have made the physical assistance call moot. That's also likely the only reviewable part of this play, unless they went for a rules check. 

That is what I was expecting was a rules check, but there was no reference to that.  Challenging the touch is interesting because he DID touch before an appeal, just not before the incident.

[Jimurray]

11 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

That is what I was expecting was a rules check, but there was no reference to that.  Challenging the touch is interesting because he DID touch before an appeal, just not before the incident.

He was still a runner if he didn't touch so he couldn't be assisted. If he did touch the assist wouldn't matter. But I am scratching my head how this interp came about. When Angel called it on Morgan in 2010 we all were confused. @MidAmUmp said it was a kick but in OBR it was not. What is it then or now in NCAA?

[JSam21]

22 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Thanks to @Senor Azul a few years ago:

"OBR Official Interpretation:  Wendelstedt:  No member of the offensive team, other than another runner running the bases, can physically assist a runner in advancing or returning to a base. 

From the 2021 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (section 6.8, p. 100):

…A runner is allowed to assist another runner physically; however, all other members of the offensive team (e.g., base coaches, on-deck batter, a runner who had just scored or has been put out, a batter, etc.) are not allowed to assist…"

Minor point about mechanics. PU killed it but you should leave the ball alive when assist takes place.

Killed it because it was the 3rd out. 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, JSam21 said:

Killed it because it was the 3rd out. 

Ok, I didn’t know the third out makes the ball dead and we should signal that. 

[JSam21]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Ok, I didn’t know the third out makes the ball dead and we should signal that. 

Play had relaxed on top of it being the 3rd out. But yeah lets go after the ML guys mechanics.

 

It is really tiresome sometimes on this site... 

 

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

It is really tiresome sometimes on this site... 

 

It would be tiresome to glean through threads to find comments on minor umpire miscues and defend them while ignoring comments where you as an NCAA umpire might have an answer.

[JSam21]

30 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

It would be tiresome to glean through threads to find comments on minor umpire miscues and defend them while ignoring comments where you as an NCAA umpire might have an answer.

There is no issue with calling time here since play relaxed, especially since this is going to be a weird situation to explain and we know someone is coming out. If action had not been relaxed, then of course keep the ball live. That is why it is tiresome.

So as for the physical assistance in NCAA: It states only base coaches in the book. I'm not going to go pour through memos right now on RQ+ but as the NCAA has moved more towards OBR interps for things, I would say that it would be safe to assume that this case would follow as well. 

[Jimurray]

22 minutes ago, JSam21 said:

There is no issue with calling time here since play relaxed, especially since this is going to be a weird situation to explain and we know someone is coming out. If action had not been relaxed, then of course keep the ball live. 

There was no issue in this case. But it's worth mentioning to remind us for other situations.

 

[grayhawk]

FYI, I sent Randy Bruns an "Ask Randy a Rules Question" on RQ+ on this play. Being the off-season, it may take a while for a response.

[Velho]

 

fwiw, LL RIM is a touch better (barely this time) than other rulesets once again. It almost directly addresses this.

[BigBlue4u]

I was at the game.  There is no doubt interference was ruled and that the runner be called out.  The problem was, Crew Chief Alan Porter, in announcing the decision to the crowd, said the out was for missing the base.