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HPU too stunned to call "That's an illegal pitch"?


Velho

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11 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Isn't this legal under the "Japanese pitching delivery" that they wrote into OBR?

Not sure the Japanese delivery includes miming a pitch in the middle of the delivery

 

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WARNING: EXTREME OPINION . . .

I have ejection for making a mockery of the game.  I am never amused by his shenanigans.  Send him down to Savannah with the rest of the clowns.

How nothing was called on the arm action and no complaint was brought up is beyond me.

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3 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

How nothing was called on the arm action and no complaint was brought up is beyond me.

But what would you call here? What's the violation, what rule support would you use to call an illegal pitch? I'm not sure what he did was illegal.

At first, I thought this might be a violation of 6.02(a)(1). But it can't be that as there were no runners on.

I'm looking through the rule-book now, and so far I haven't been able to come up with a rule violation to support calling an illegal pitch.

Thoughts?

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Not arguing with you @JonnyCat but further example our rules are broken aren't as tight as they could be that we  struggle for this one, imo

11 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

I'm looking through the rule-book now, and so far I haven't been able to come up with a rule violation to support calling an illegal pitch.

A QUICK RETURN pitch is one made with obvious intent to catch a batter off balance. It is an illegal pitch.

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6 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Isn't this legal under the "Japanese pitching delivery" that they wrote into OBR?

What was changed and when? Was OBR changed or was it an interpretation?

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6 minutes ago, Velho said:

What was changed and when? Was OBR changed or was it an interpretation?

Dear Baseball Gods...please don't let my memories fade now...

My recollection is a few years ago there was a Japanese pitcher who was drafted and played in MLB. He arrived here with what I've heard as a "Japanese pitching delivery". This is a windup with a huge pause in the middle of it. At the time this guy broke in that was illegal in OBR (but legal in Japan...) and I don't recall if the umpires then were just killing it or if they were calling an illegal pitch and putting a ball on the count. Eventually, MLB "allowed" this kind of delivery. I don't recall if they edited the rulebook or if they issued an interpretation to the umpires. This lead to now Nestor doing his thing...amongst others.

I had a similar situation last summer. My partner was on the plate and we were under FED which would strictly prohibit any of this because the rule there is "continuous motion" and he called an illegal pitch in the first at-bat of the game, added a ball and that was the end of it. In post-game, he reminded me that OBR differs on this and reminded me of the "Japanese delivery".

Does anybody have any file on this?

~Dawg

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21 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

But what would you call here? What's the violation, what rule support would you use to call an illegal pitch? I'm not sure what he did was illegal.

At first, I thought this might be a violation of 6.02(a)(1). But it can't be that as there were no runners on.

I'm looking through the rule-book now, and so far I haven't been able to come up with a rule violation to support calling an illegal pitch.

Thoughts?

While “no alteration” is in both OBR and NCAA only NCAA would have heartburn over this. Pitchers alter their delivery legally, Japanese or otherwise, and it is not called. If you don’t like that delivery and call a violation you will have to call every nitpick windup violation. Quoting Jim Evans, that is not a practical way to umpire”

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8 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

My partner was on the plate and we were under FED which would strictly prohibit any of this because the rule there is "continuous motion"

While I think "continuous motion" could be debated for anything short of a complete freeze, FED does have "The pitcher is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations" that I'm guessing is applicable for the Nestor (formerly Cueto) action?

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5 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

If you don’t like that delivery and call a violation you will have to call every nitpick windup violation. Quoting Jim Evans, that is not a practical way to umpire”

"Do you think that applies to the fake throw in the middle of the delivery?" [asked with curiosity and zero defensiveness]

 

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1 minute ago, Velho said:

While. Think "continuous motion" could be debated for anything short of a complete freeze, FED does have "The pitcher is limited to not more than two pumps or rotations" that I'm guessing is applicable for the Nestor (formerly Cueto) action?

Absolutely could be debated. It's judgement. In my FED case, F1 was starting his windup, coming to a full stop...and then resuming his delivery. There was NO QUESTION this was not continuous. There were no pumps or rotations involved.

I need to review OBR and see how it's written, honestly...

~Dawg

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11 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

but .....this wasn't a "quick return pitch" ....

I agree that there is nothing "quick" about it as defined by Merriam Webster. But, OBR's definition doesn't preconditon acting with speed.

The MiLB Manual has multiple criteria and separates "before a batter is reasonably set" from "a deliberate effort to catch a batter off guard". The mime was meant to confuse and have the batter relax their guard. 

We aren't going to change OBR here - though they should of course be listening 😁 - so I have two questions:

1) If this isn't illegal, what would be illegal with no runners on? Can the pitcher juggle the ball and his mitt before throwing it? Can he pirouette? Being facetious but wonder is anything is illegal as long as pivot foot is on the rubber and it's a continuous motion?

2) Should this be illegal?

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6 hours ago, Velho said:

I agree that there is nothing "quick" about it as defined by Merriam Webster. But, OBR's definition doesn't preconditon acting with speed.

The MiLB Manual has multiple criteria and separates "before a batter is reasonably set" from "a deliberate effort to catch a batter off guard". The mime was meant to confuse and have the batter relax their guard. 

We aren't going to change OBR here - though they should of course be listening 😁 - so I have two questions:

1) If this isn't illegal, what would be illegal with no runners on? Can the pitcher juggle the ball and his mitt before throwing it? Can he pirouette? Being facetious but wonder is anything is illegal as long as pivot foot is on the rubber and it's a continuous motion?

2) Should this be illegal?

IMHO which doesn't mean squat, think the last 2 we have seen were balks with runners on and illegal pitches if no one is on. the step off step back on and this double pitch if you ask me.

his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch (not pitches, a fake/feint pitch and a real pitch) without interruption or alteration (of one pitch, not 2).

let's hope this is like Joe West putting baseball in the jackpot, by saying the pitcher could not use a card, either by interpreting the rule that was as written that way or invoking 9.01c oops i thing it is 8.01c now. and guess what. they did make an immediate ruling/clarification that said he could use the card. they did not wait till the end of the year or the next year. so, if we have not heard, yet, any memo's being sent out on these last 2, they are saying the no calls of an illegal pitch means they were legal. and let's see what happens if runners are on base and they do this. will it be a balk for both or let it go.

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27 minutes ago, dumbdumb said:


 

let's hope this is like what happens if runners are on base and they do this. will it be a balk for both or let it go.

I think runners on base would not need a balk call to advance as they probably will have advanced during his dance if he was foolish enough to windup like that with runners on. Which I don’t think Cortez would be. 

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20 hours ago, Velho said:

"Do you think that applies to the fake throw in the middle of the delivery?" [asked with curiosity and zero defensiveness]

 

That is the motion I am keying in on.  Will have to pull up the OBR book when I get home.  IMO, it sure looked like a motion to pitch without delivering the ball.

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27 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

That is the motion I am keying in on.  Will have to pull up the OBR book when I get home.  IMO, it sure looked like a motion to pitch without delivering the ball.

I think back in the day OBR also had some reference to "pumps or rotations" and that might qualify. But just go here;

Close Call Sports & Umpire Ejection Fantasy League

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15 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Their conclusion is "don't do that". Personally I don't find that compelling and believe it ignores the Umpire Manual (at least the MiLB version I have since the MLB manual is not publicly available).

If I see it (and I'd rather I not) I'm calling it an illegal pitch in the LL (14U and below) games I do.

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5.07(1)

image.png.d61523ccb74ee0d5aa08ec969c341a54.png

5.07(2)

image.png.a0a9bfcd7708569e387c3af079feb880.png

 

I would say the feint in the middle was a definite violation of "any natural motion associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without alteration or interruption."

I'll also take a flyer on the "shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in the actual delivery of the ball."

 

... and then I'll break out a soap box I haven't gotten on in a while:

STOP LOOKING FOR REASONS TO ALLOW THIS CRAP.  It is a violation of the spirit of the game.   

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13 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

STOP LOOKING FOR REASONS TO ALLOW THIS CRAP.  It is a violation of the spirit of the game.   

To quote a coach friend when I asked his thoughts (seeing aside any rulebook assessment): "Yes, should be illegal to do what Nestor did. Clown show. "

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“Without hesitation or alteration.” 
it’s in all three codes. 
If kicking you free leg up, then back down, then wrapping  your free leg around your pivot leg, faking a motion to pitch, kicking you leg back up, and then delivering a pitch isn’t both hesitation and/or alteration, I don’t know what is. I’m calling this an illegal pitch in every single level I umpire…. From low teen travel stuff through college. 

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34 minutes ago, Richvee said:

“Without hesitation or alteration.” 
it’s in all three codes. 
If kicking you free leg up, then back down, then wrapping  your free leg around your pivot leg, faking a motion to pitch, kicking you leg back up, and then delivering a pitch isn’t both hesitation and/or alteration, I don’t know what is. I’m calling this an illegal pitch in every single level I umpire…. From low teen travel stuff through college. 

Can a pitcher switch from an overhead windup to a 3/4 windup to a sidearm windup during a game? Is that an "alteration"?Can a pitcher lift his pivot foot from the rubber to turn it sideways to deliver? OBR addressed the double free foot step a while ago and sent that pitcher back to the minors to correct it. They have not sent Cortez back to the minors. @Richvee while quoting the "hesitation" part of the OBR and NCAA rule are you going to dispute NCAA then allowing a "Note 2: A pitcher may pause during the delivery from the windup position without penalty." to accommodate the "Japanese delivery." Are coaches upset by this delivery? Are batters upset by this delivery? Batters are upset by some MLB pitcher's delivery such as the guys who don't windup from a windup and then do wind up from a wind up but I don't see batters upset by Cortez. Follow your code. FED very strict and no Japanese windup for the cohort of some of the simpleton umpires in their cohort. NCAA changing and allowing a pause in the windup due to OBR allowing it but not allowing shenanigans such as double leg kicks in the windup and I suspect Nestor's shenanigans.  

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1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Can a pitcher switch from an overhead windup to a 3/4 windup to a sidearm windup during a game? Is that an "alteration"?Can a pitcher lift his pivot foot from the rubber to turn it sideways to deliver? OBR addressed the double free foot step a while ago and sent that pitcher back to the minors to correct it. They have not sent Cortez back to the minors. @Richvee while quoting the "hesitation" part of the OBR and NCAA rule are you going to dispute NCAA then allowing a "Note 2: A pitcher may pause during the delivery from the windup position without penalty." to accommodate the "Japanese delivery." Are coaches upset by this delivery? Are batters upset by this delivery? Batters are upset by some MLB pitcher's delivery such as the guys who don't windup from a windup and then do wind up from a wind up but I don't see batters upset by Cortez. Follow your code. FED very strict and no Japanese windup for the cohort of some of the simpleton umpires in their cohort. NCAA changing and allowing a pause in the windup due to OBR allowing it but not allowing shenanigans such as double leg kicks in the windup and I suspect Nestor's shenanigans.  

“Alteration”, is not altering the delivery method of one pitching motion compared to another. (overhand vs sidearm, high leg kick vs lower step towards the plate). Alteration is lifting your leg to deliver a pitch, then hesitating and brining of the leg back down, and back up again… that’s altering the motion of delivering a pitch. 
As for NCAA’s interp for allowing a “ Japanese” pause, they are referring to a pause at the top of the windup with the hands still together prior to the free leg  starting toward. This has also been well documented in their videos. 
 

and as you state.. “ follow your code”, you’re 100% right. My codes are FED and NCAA, both which explicitly say these shenanigans are illegal. 
 

As far as I can see, it’s MLB that chooses to ignore or bastardize what alteration and hesitation actually mean. 

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1 hour ago, Richvee said:

“Alteration”, is not altering the delivery method of one pitching motion compared to another. (overhand vs sidearm, high leg kick vs lower step towards the plate). Alteration is lifting your leg to deliver a pitch, then hesitating and brining of the leg back down, and back up again… that’s altering the motion of delivering a pitch. 
As for NCAA’s interp for allowing a “ Japanese” pause, they are referring to a pause at the top of the windup with the hands still together prior to the free leg  starting toward. This has also been well documented in their videos. 
 

and as you state.. “ follow your code”, you’re 100% right. My codes are FED and NCAA, both which explicitly say these shenanigans are illegal. 
 

As far as I can see, it’s MLB that chooses to ignore or bastardize what alteration and hesitation actually mean. 

Ok, the people that wrote the rule don’t know how to interpret it. The people who use the OBR rule to write their own rule, NCAA, follow OBR for the Japanese windup but then squelch any other “alteration”. FED is on its own, including balking a hand to the mouth or currently calling RLI at the moment of the throw. I do not quibble with any of you that would call this an IP in FED. I would also ask if you call the TOP in the windup in FED. 

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