Mound Visit

[Miss Prospects]

Playing a grand slam tournament. Other teams coach made 3 mount visits to same pitcher  and wasn’t required to remove pitcher. Rule has always been pitcher must be removed on third mound visit. Umpires were at a disagreement. Called to the upper people and they stated that rules were different for THIS tournament. It honestly seemed as the other coach was doing visit to kill time.  No different rules were given to coaches or umpires. Is there a clear definition to what the rule is for grand slam tournaments. Do rules changes for specific tournaments?  There were only 7 teams playing in this 12U A tournament. If rules are changed what should the procedure be seeing teams were not made aware of the change?

[Jimurray]

16 minutes ago, Miss Prospects said:

Playing a grand slam tournament. Other teams coach made 3 mount visits to same pitcher  and wasn’t required to remove pitcher. Rule has always been pitcher must be removed on third mound visit. Umpires were at a disagreement. Called to the upper people and they stated that rules were different for THIS tournament. It honestly seemed as the other coach was doing visit to kill time.  No different rules were given to coaches or umpires. Is there a clear definition to what the rule is for grand slam tournaments. Do rules changes for specific tournaments?  There were only 7 teams playing in this 12U A tournament. If rules are changed what should the procedure be seeing teams were not made aware of the change?

Their website says they go by NFHS rules unless modified. They don't show a modification of the NFHS charged conference rule which is three allowed charged conferences during a game which can be to any pitcher. A fourth visit to any pitcher requires removal of that pitcher. While you say "the rule has always been", it might be that your umpires have always not known the rule.

[The Man in Blue]

51 minutes ago, Miss Prospects said:

Playing a grand slam tournament. Other teams coach made 3 mount visits to same pitcher  and wasn’t required to remove pitcher. Rule has always been pitcher must be removed on third mound visit. Umpires were at a disagreement. Called to the upper people and they stated that rules were different for THIS tournament. It honestly seemed as the other coach was doing visit to kill time.  No different rules were given to coaches or umpires. Is there a clear definition to what the rule is for grand slam tournaments. Do rules changes for specific tournaments?  There were only 7 teams playing in this 12U A tournament. If rules are changed what should the procedure be seeing teams were not made aware of the change?

 

As somebody who called there for a few years I offer this advice: don't play Grand Slam in Mississippi.  By my second season in MS, I refused to work their tournaments.  Every week was an issue.  My horror story of my worst game -- one that had me contemplating hanging it up -- a "state championship" where we called the game with a tie score because we had to be escorted off the field by the police -- was under their "customer first" mentality.  The only thing that matters to them are their "big customers" who come back and bring several teams every week.  They do not care about sportsmanship, player safety, or supporting their umpires.

PM me for better recommendations.

 

[Vegas_Ump]

Remember that it's not really a "mound visit".  It's a Defensive time out.  Had a game where the manager wanted to talk to his F5 on how to appeal a runner leaving early.  I charged him a "visit" and as a result the pitcher needed to be changed.

Interesting discussion followed.

Mike

Las Vegas

[SeeingEyeDog]

@Miss Prospects, typically what is "supposed to happen" is PRIOR to the tournament all coaches and umpires are provided with the rules via email or text or the umpires are advised by their assigners. Typically, as @Jimurray stated, the basis of the ruleset is given (NFHS, OBR, etc...) and THEN the modifications are given. "This tournament will be under NFHS rules, however we will have the following modifications..." Then, at each pre-game plate meeting the plate umpire will typically restate what was provided in advance off the tournament, "Ok, coaches...we're playing under NFHS rules with the following modifications..." As umpires, we want everyone to be WELL AWARE of what EXACT rules will be applied before we actually play the game.

In summary, absent a SPECIFIC modification to the rules, we revert to the base ruleset and yes...as stated above, NFHS is 3 charged defensive conferences per game and F1 must be substituted for on the 4th conference. Additionally, if the game goes into extra innings each team gets 1 additional defensive conference per inning played and they are no cumulative so, if the extra inning conference is not used in that inning, it cannot be used later.

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

2 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Remember that it's not really a "mound visit".  It's a Defensive time out.  Had a game where the manager wanted to talk to his F5 on how to appeal a runner leaving early.  I charged him a "visit" and as a result the pitcher needed to be changed.

Interesting discussion followed.

Mike

Las Vegas

 

*cough*conference*cough*

😉

 

@SeeingEyeDog . . . you missed the step after the coaches are provided with the modifications.  (The step where they promptly do not read them.)

I am so cynical lately.

[SeeingEyeDog]

😆...thank you, brother! Yes, @The Man in Blue...coaches are of course required to refrain from actually reading the rules and or any modifications! Hey...a little cynicism makes us feel alive!
 

~Dawg

[BLWizzRanger]

[mention=6270]Miss Prospects[/mention], typically what is "supposed to happen" is PRIOR to the tournament all coaches and umpires are provided with the rules via email or text or the umpires are advised by their assigners. Typically, as [mention=1586]Jimurray[/mention] stated, the basis of the ruleset is given (NFHS, OBR, etc...) and THEN the modifications are given. "This tournament will be under NFHS rules, however we will have the following modifications..." Then, at each pre-game plate meeting the plate umpire will typically restate what was provided in advance off the tournament, "Ok, coaches...we're playing under NFHS rules with the following modifications..." As umpires, we want everyone to be WELL AWARE of what EXACT rules will be applied before we actually play the game.
In summary, absent a SPECIFIC modification to the rules, we revert to the base ruleset and yes...as stated above, NFHS is 3 charged defensive conferences per game and F1 must be substituted for on the 4th conference. Additionally, if the game goes into extra innings each team gets 1 additional defensive conference per inning played and they are no cumulative so, if the extra inning conference is not used in that inning, it cannot be used later.
~Dawg

Dont forget, all three could be in the same inning while different batters are at bat. But for the fourth, fifth, sixth etc (until extra innings), its required that the pitcher be changed

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[Richvee]

3 hours ago, BLWizzRanger said:

Dont forget, all three could be in the same inning while different batters are at bat. But for the fourth, fifth, sixth etc (until extra innings), its required that the pitcher be changed

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They can be to same batter as well. 

[MadMax]

14 hours ago, Miss Prospects said:

It honestly seemed as the other coach was doing visit to kill time.

FIFY. It was absolutely why the "other coach" was blowing through all his mound visits / conferences. Time-limited tournaments with "Sunday trophies" are the among the vilest forms of baseball, and bring out every manner of shenanigan and seedy trick imaginable. 

14 hours ago, Jimurray said:

While you say "the rule has always been", it might be that your umpires have always not known the rule.

Or, in fairness to everyone involved (and @Miss Prospects ), this could have been (yet another) a different Tournament Series (Grand Slam? I've never called one in my career), despite being at a familiar venue, hosted by a familiar tournament director (person or people, not overarching organization), called by (rather) familiar umpires, and played by familiar teams. This happens to us frequently in Arizona, where my colleagues and I will routinely call games that not only be under all three core Rulesets (OBR, NCAA, and NFHS), but will involve all manner of amateur -fueled variations (LL, Adult OBR, NFHS w/ tourney mods... NAIA *shudder* ). I have heard many a colleague, through no negligence of their own, call out, "Hey Charlie! What ruleset we using for this one?", from Field 3, while Charlie on Field 4 answers back, "NFHS, with continuous batting order, and OBR pitching visits!" 

11 hours ago, Vegas_Ump said:

Had a game where the manager wanted to talk to his F5 on how to appeal a runner leaving early.  I charged him a "visit" and as a result the pitcher needed to be changed.

Interesting discussion followed.

🤨 You're making my eye twitch. Was this a NFHS-based tournament? 

If yes, then... <* rummages around his shed to find his soapbox and megaphone *> ... why didn't you allow / remind / inform / prompt him to conduct a DEAD BALL APPEAL??!! Just avoid the pain entirely! 

If no, then... <* turns off megaphone, but continues to stand on soapbox *> ... why didn't you allow him to tell/direct his F5 to make that appeal from the field (ie. out of the dugout, but short of the foul line), with the ball still being Live? And if he's requesting Time to do so, simply inquire further, and mention that to make the appeal, Coach, the ball needs to be Live to do so, so what purpose would be served in killing it (actually calling Time)? This is amateur baseball! This ain't the pros, or even college for that matter. To expect an amateur coach and/or their players to know how to conduct an appeal is, as the analogy goes, A Bridge Too Far. 

Remember the film, based on the book, The Rainmaker ? Matt Damon plays recent law school grad (passed the bar exam, but is not yet licensed) Rudy Baylor, who takes on an insurance-bad-faith case. The judge, unimpressed by the high-priced and pressed suit lawyers of the insurance company, guides Rudy through several points of court protocol and procedure, for while he cannot present evidence or raise objections for him and the plaintiff, he certainly can mention that such a procedure or protocol exists, and facilitates with great patience as Rudy navigates into this uncharted territory for himself. 

 We certainly shouldn't coddle or hand-hold coaches, but we are the living representatives of the Rulebook. We can certainly be "accessible".