Little League Runner Knocks Fielder's Glove Off on Tag

[Lindsay]

A batter-runner knocked a first baseman's glove off his hand during a tag attempt at first base during the North Dakota-Iowa Midwest Region Little League World Series game. We review and answer your question as to whether the proper call here is "safe" due to the fielder's glove falling off or "out" due to the fielder's prior tag of first base.

The Official Baseball Rules definitions provides us with two tagging scenarios: "A TAG is the action of a fielder in touching a base with their body while holding the ball securely and firmly in their hand or glove; or touching a runner with the ball, or with their hand or glove holding the ball."

A fielder may thus tag 1) a base or 2) a runner. In this LLWS play, the fielder attempts to tag the base. Breaking this play down into phases, we see that the fielder received the throw, possessed the ball, and touched first base prior to the runner's arrival. The runner then stepped (assumedly unintentionally) on the fielder's glove, causing the glove to come off the fielder's hand.

The on-field umpire ruled the batter-runner safe, but Replay Review overturned this call based on the type of tag this was — a base tag, not a runner tag — and that the base tag had been satisfactorily completed prior to the runner, an outside influence at this point, coming and disrupting the attempted play with a foot to the glove.

Video as follows:
Alternate Link: Runner Knocks Fielder's Glove Off on Tag at Little League World Series

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[SeeingEyeDog]

Can someone who works LL expound a little bit more on this replay, please? How are the LL rules worded for replay and what exactly are they reviewing here? Is it whether the fielder had secure possession of the baseball while in contact with the base in a force out situation AND THEN the glove was knocked away? Are they looking at intent? Does the rule change if it's deliberate, like Rodriguez on Arroyo?

~Dawg

[Lou B]

First, this might be picky, but a play on the batter/runner at first is not a force out!

The replay was to determine whether F3 had possession of the ball while touching first base before the batter/runner reached first base, he did, its an out. The runner displaying the fielders glove (accidentally) happened after the tag.

[Thunderheads]

14 minutes ago, Lou B said:

First, this might be picky, but a play on the batter/runner at first is not a force out!

Who said that?

[SeeingEyeDog]

1 hour ago, Lou B said:

First, this might be picky, but a play on the batter/runner at first is not a force out!

The replay was to determine whether F3 had possession of the ball while touching first base before the batter/runner reached first base, he did, its an out. The runner displaying the fielders glove (accidentally) happened after the tag.

Ok, so what's the proper word semantics on a play at first base? "A putout opportunity that could be a tag play OR secure possession of the baseball by a fielder while also contacting first base?" I mean...what am I supposed to say there when discussing putouts at first base?

~Dawg

[maven]

27 minutes ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

Ok, so what's the proper word semantics on a play at first base? "A putout opportunity that could be a tag play OR secure possession of the baseball by a fielder while also contacting first base?" I mean...what am I supposed to say there when discussing putouts at first base?

You're asking about diction or word choice, not semantics or meaning.

A tag play requires tagging the runner. Very simple.

A force play, appeal play, or retiring the BR prior to his touching 1B requires tagging the runner or the relevant base.

Tagging a runner requires the fielder to maintain secure possession of the ball in hand or glove through the entire action of the tag. The ball popping out during the tag is evidence that he did not maintain possession, and the umpire should rule the runner safe in that case.

Tagging a base requires the fielder to maintain secure possession of the ball in hand or glove at the moment of tagging the base. The ball popping out due to accidental contact with the runner after the tag of the base is nothing, and the umpire should rule the runner out in that case.

'Secure possession' is a judgment call.

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, maven said:

You're asking about diction or word choice, not semantics or meaning.

 

A force play, appeal play, or retiring the BR prior to his touching 1B requires tagging the runner or the relevant base.

 

That is the proper description of what the batter is subject to at 1B but @SeeingEyeDog is in good company with FED and NCAA when they used "force" instead of the unwieldy phrasing.

NCAA:

"Note: When the winning run is scored in the last half-inning of a regulation game, or in the last half-inning of an extra inning, as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full which forces the batter and all other runners to advance without liability of being put out, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home plate and the batter-runner has touched first base"

FED 2019 interps:

"SITUATION 14: A sharp line drive is hit to the second baseman. The impact of the ball takes the glove off the second baseman’s hand, and the glove lands on the ground with the ball still in the pocket of the glove. The second baseman retrieves the glove and takes the ball out of the pocket. Is this a catch or must the ball be thrown to first base in an attempt to record the out? RULING: This is not a catch. To record the out on the batter-runner, the second baseman would need to throw the ball to first in an attempt to obtain the force out. A catch is an act of a fielder gaining secure possession in his hand or glove of a live ball in flight and firmly holding it. (2-9-1)"

[MadMax]

We (recent? < 10 years recent?) graduates of Umpire School got the lecture. The Play-at-First-Base is not a Force Play. The Batter becomes a Runner (ergo, the Batter-Runner), but does not have another Runner forcing him. 

Yup. Goofy semantics. Whee! 

NCAA confounds itself, if you really think about it… 🤔… If NCAA claims that the Play-at-1B is a Force Play, then why are Batter-Runners allowed to run directly through first base? Wouldn’t they be subject to… oh, iddaknow… the Force Play Slide Rule? Wouldn’t they have to veer off or perform a legal slide, each and every time? It’s a Force Play – as you claim – is it not? The Force Play Slide Rule isn’t specific to 2B only. It includes any base where a Force Play is occurring! 

Thus, the Play-at-First-Base is not a Force Play. 🤫 

[Velho]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

That is the proper description of what the batter is subject to at 1B but @SeeingEyeDog is in good company with FED and NCAA when they used "force" instead of the unwieldy phrasing.

 

MLB as well https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play#

"Force Play

Definition

A force play occurs when a baserunner is no longer permitted to legally occupy a base and must attempt to advance to the next base. The defense can retire the runner by tagging the next base before he arrives, though not if the defensive team first forces out a trailing runner. In that instance, the force play is removed and the defense must tag the remaining runners to retire them.

First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air."

[ArchAngel72]

Jim I would not say this is an apples to apples thing.  The runner kicked the glove causing it to dislodge from F3  in your example its a sharply hit ball taking the glove off the fielders hand.

 

I have this as an out. Whether intentional or not a BR or runner should not be able to pull, push or kick a fielders glove off.  Prior to that the fielder did appear to have his foot against the base and the ball in his glove.  BR is out at that point. 

[Jimurray]

24 minutes ago, Velho said:

MLB as well https://www.mlb.com/glossary/rules/force-play#

"Force Play

Definition

A force play occurs when a baserunner is no longer permitted to legally occupy a base and must attempt to advance to the next base. The defense can retire the runner by tagging the next base before he arrives, though not if the defensive team first forces out a trailing runner. In that instance, the force play is removed and the defense must tag the remaining runners to retire them.

First base tends to have the most force plays, as batters are eligible to be forced out at first any time they put the ball into fair territory and it is not caught in the air."

Good find. It puts @SeeingEyeDog in even better company. Although that's not the definition in the rule book it exemplifies using "force" to describe the out at 1B. We all know better but I have given up nit picking the error except where we talk about scoring a run.

[Jimurray]

44 minutes ago, MadMax said:

We (recent? < 10 years recent?) graduates of Umpire School got the lecture. The Play-at-First-Base is not a Force Play. The Batter becomes a Runner (ergo, the Batter-Runner), but does not have another Runner forcing him. 

Yup. Goofy semantics. Whee! 

NCAA confounds itself, if you really think about it… 🤔… If NCAA claims that the Play-at-1B is a Force Play, then why are Batter-Runners allowed to run directly through first base? Wouldn’t they be subject to… oh, iddaknow… the Force Play Slide Rule? Wouldn’t they have to veer off or perform a legal slide, each and every time? It’s a Force Play – as you claim – is it not? The Force Play Slide Rule isn’t specific to 2B only. It includes any base where a Force Play is occurring! 

Thus, the Play-at-First-Base is not a Force Play. 🤫 

I think the NCAA use is just a wording error when they changed to the OBR rule regarding walking in the winning run. 

[Jimurray]

27 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

Jim I would not say this is an apples to apples thing.  The runner kicked the glove causing it to dislodge from F3  in your example its a sharply hit ball taking the glove off the fielders hand.

 

I have this as an out. Whether intentional or not a BR or runner should not be able to pull, push or kick a fielders glove off.  Prior to that the fielder did appear to have his foot against the base and the ball in his glove.  BR is out at that point. 

I don't think you realize that we have hijacked the thread into a discussion of the use of "forced" inappropriately, which why I used that FED interp.

[Thunderheads]

I've certainly realized we're WAY OFF TRACK.   Create a new thread if it's that important to you, even though the subject has been discussed MANY times.'

Back on track here guys, please ...  thanks for your cooperation

[Velho]

3 hours ago, maven said:

Tagging a base requires the fielder to maintain secure possession of the ball in hand or glove at the moment of tagging the base. The ball popping out due to accidental contact with the runner after the tag of the base is nothing, and the umpire should rule the runner out in that case.

'Secure possession' is a judgment call.

Maven summarized it well (no surprise 😀 )

For completeness, LL RIM section on Tag:

[Jimurray]

20 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

I've certainly realized we're WAY OFF TRACK.   Create a new thread if it's that important to you, even though the subject has been discussed MANY times.'

Back on track here guys, please ...  thanks for your cooperation

No need to go back on track🙂. As @maven says, the OP has been answered by the OP in her post and further supported by following posts. We are now free to hijack. The second poster, @SeeingEyeDog might want us to get back on track about LL replay procedures but nobody has responded to that. In addition the OP and references to "force" bring up the LL failure to align with OBR when OBR changed when a runner was out on a force. Using the force definition at 1B requires the batter to reach the base before it or he is tagged in the LL book while the defense has to tag 1B before the batter gets there.