Bunted Ball Hits Bat Twice

[Guest ZoomProf]

Situation: Batter bunts ball into fair territory. Batter starts to run to first, but still has a foot in the batter's box and is still holding the bat with both hands. Ball bounces directly in front of the batter-runner and hits the bat for the second time.

Dead ball? Batter out? What is the call?

Thanks,

 

[Tborze]

3 hours ago, Guest ZoomProf said:

Situation: Batter bunts ball into fair territory. Batter starts to run to first, but still has a foot in the batter's box and is still holding the bat with both hands. Ball bounces directly in front of the batter-runner and hits the bat for the second time.

Dead ball? Batter out? What is the call?

Thanks,

 

Foul ball 2-16-1

 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Tborze said:

Foul ball 2-16-1

 

That’s correct for HS but not for OBR. OBR he would be out due not being in their defined legal position in the box. 

[noumpere]

30 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

That’s correct for HS but not for OBR. OBR he would be out due not being in their defined legal position in the box. 

Does it depend on whether the foot-not-in-the-box is (or has been) on the ground outside the box or if it's still in the air (i.e., just beginning the first step)?  This rule / interp has changed over time and I can't remember.

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, noumpere said:

Does it depend on whether the foot-not-in-the-box is (or has been) on the ground outside the box or if it's still in the air (i.e., just beginning the first step)?  This rule / interp has changed over time and I can't remember.

When it just was a word of mouth interp we all thought one foot still in the box or no foot touching outside the box was in the box and a foul ball would be called as in NCAA and NFHS. But when MLB added the rule they used legal position and defined it as both feet. Since that year The few instances of it being called except 1 or 2 were on a batter that still had one foot in the box and was exiting the box. The 2 exceptions were confusing and I don't know what the umpire school is teaching now.

"5.09(a)(7)  His fair ball touches him before touching a fielder. If the batter is in a legal position in the batter’s box, see Rule 5.04(b)(5), and, in the umpire’s judgment, there was no intention to interfere with the course of the ball, a batted ball that strikes the batter or his bat shall be ruled a foul ball;"

"5.04(b)(5)  The batter’s legal position shall be with both feet within the batter’s box."

[Senor Azul]

To our guest, ZoomProf--you actually called it correctly—once the batter is out of the box he would be out and it would be a dead ball and any runner(s) returned to his TOP base. This would be true for the three major rule sets—OBR, FED, and NCAA. One caveat—in Little League for a batter to be considered to be out of the box he must be entirely out, i.e., both feet on the ground out of the box (see the Instructor’s Comment for rule 6.05f in its 2022 RIM).

Here’s a high school case play that tells us when the batter is considered to be out of the box--

2023 NFHS Case Book Play 8.4.1 SITUATION B: B1 squares to bunt and hits the pitch. The batted ball bounces off the plate and hits B1's (a) leg or, (b) bat a second time while B1 is holding the bat in the batter's box (no foot is entirely outside of the batter's box). RULING: In (a), it is a foul ball. In (b), the ball is foul unless, in the umpire's judgment, the ball was contacted intentionally, in which case the ball would be dead and B1 declared out.

[BDad]

I noticed LL Rule 6.05(g) says the batter is out when, after hitting or bunting a fair ball, the bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. At first, I took this to mean the OP's batter might be out no matter the position of the feet (assuming the second contact between bat and ball is in fair territory). But on second thought, do we have to judge intention? I.e., in the OP, the ball bounces and (unintentionally) hits the bat a second time, which is different than "the bat hits the ball a second time", which would imply batter intent?

[Senor Azul]

Mr. BDad, sometimes there is intent involved in this kind of play and it must be judged by the umpire. Following are the Instructor’s Comments from the 2022 LL RIM for rule 6.05(g)--

2022 LL RIM rule 6.05(g) INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

In cases where the batting helmet is accidentally hit, in fair territory, with a batted or thrown ball, the ball remains in play the same as if it has not hit the helmet.

If a batted ball strikes a batting helmet or any other object foreign to the natural ground while on foul territory, it is a foul ball and the ball is dead.

If, in the umpire’s judgment, there is intent on the part of a base runner to interfere with a batted or thrown ball by dropping the helmet or throwing it at the ball, then the runner would be out, the ball dead and runners would return to last base legally touched.

2018 LL case book Make the Right Call play 6.05(g) Situation—

The batter lays down a bunt between the pitcher’s plate and the first base line. As the batter starts toward first base he/she flips his/her bat into fair territory where it strikes the ball (a second time).

RULING:  Since the bat struck the ball a second time in fair territory, this would be ruled as interference by the batter whether it was intentional or not. If the ball had struck the bat it would remain live and in play. The umpire must judge what initiated the contact; the bat to the ball—interference or the ball to the bat—live ball.

[stevis]

On 1/24/2023 at 9:32 PM, BDad said:

I noticed LL Rule 6.05(g) says the batter is out when, after hitting or bunting a fair ball, the bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. At first, I took this to mean the OP's batter might be out no matter the position of the feet (assuming the second contact between bat and ball is in fair territory). But on second thought, do we have to judge intention? I.e., in the OP, the ball bounces and (unintentionally) hits the bat a second time, which is different than "the bat hits the ball a second time", which would imply batter intent?

Every LL clinic I've been too has stressed the difference between the bat hitting the ball in fair territory (e.g., you tossed your bat towards the ball), that's an out.  If the ball hits the bat (e.g., you drop your bat and backspin causes the ball to come back to it), that's play on. 

In the OP, I would have it the latter (ball hit the bat).

[Jimurray]

On 1/24/2023 at 8:32 PM, BDad said:

I noticed LL Rule 6.05(g) says the batter is out when, after hitting or bunting a fair ball, the bat hits the ball a second time in fair territory. At first, I took this to mean the OP's batter might be out no matter the position of the feet (assuming the second contact between bat and ball is in fair territory). But on second thought, do we have to judge intention? I.e., in the OP, the ball bounces and (unintentionally) hits the bat a second time, which is different than "the bat hits the ball a second time", which would imply batter intent?

The OBR 6.05(g) originally was worded this way and LL copied it. LL never changed their 6.05(g) when MLB did (circa 2010?) to make it a foul ball as I cite above in the now 5.09(a)(7). Literal rule readers called this a "double hit" and called the batter out no matter what his foot position. But there existed an unofficial interpretation back then that said to call it a foul ball if the batter was in the box and most of us took in the box to be at least one foot. When MLB decided to amend the rule they made it both feet in the box.

[BDad]

So my read of the OP using LL rules and the discussion above is

1. the ball hit the bat a second time in fair territory, so live ball play on (2018 LL Case Book per @Senor Azul and LL clinics per @stevis)

2. the batter is not yet out of the batter's box because he still has one foot in the box, so call "foul" (LL RIM 6.05(f) Instructor's Comments, and this would agree with the historical interpretation mentioned by @Jimurray)

Seem right?

[Stk004]

On 1/23/2023 at 11:08 AM, noumpere said:

Does it depend on whether the foot-not-in-the-box is (or has been) on the ground outside the box or if it's still in the air (i.e., just beginning the first step)?  This rule / interp has changed over time and I can't remember.

Nowadays, a batter with one foot in the box and one foot in the air would still be considered in the box. He would need to have one foot entirely on the ground outside of the box to be considered out of the box. 

[Jimurray]

8 hours ago, Stk004 said:

Nowadays, a batter with one foot in the box and one foot in the air would still be considered in the box. He would need to have one foot entirely on the ground outside of the box to be considered out of the box. 

Nowadays in all codes? MLB/OBR has not changed their rule since circa 2010 and batters with one foot in the air have been called out. 

[Stk004]

51 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Nowadays in all codes? MLB/OBR has not changed their rule since circa 2010 and batters with one foot in the air have been called out. 

My post above is the current OBR interpretation. I’m not sure if any of their literature has changed since then, but the way they want it called is if the batters foot is still in the air he’s not out of the box.
 

This can be really hard to call in real time, which might lead to our confusion over what should be called vs what’s actually called. 

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Stk004 said:

My post above is the current OBR interpretation. I’m not sure if any of their literature has changed since then, but the way they want it called is if the batters foot is still in the air he’s not out of the box.
 

This can be really hard to call in real time, which might lead to our confusion over what should be called vs what’s actually called. 

There was no confusion about what was called immediately after the rule addition. Batters were called out with their foot in the air.  There were one or two batters that were called or not called where we were confused about what the umpire judged. It was discussed in UE when the rule and the calls were noted but the video probably won’t be available. What cite from MLB sources do you have that says they are not calling it by the rule they wrote?