Trouble Balls in 2-Man

[Richvee]

11 hours ago, JSam21 said:

It is something that has been misinterpreted from the 3/4 umpire system. In those systems, if you go out, you stay out, because you have umpires to cover it. But with the 2 umpire system, you have to come back. 

Except now there’s times u3 can come back for plays at third given the right circumstances and pregamed  

 

[Mudisfun]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:07 PM, JonnyCat said:

I understand if that's the way your association or area does that. When in Rome.

However, the proper mechanic is for the base umpire to cover plays at the plate. There are some exceptions to this if the BU has to stay out longer to see if the ball has gone out of play, but for the most part the BU will take plays at the plate. There is usually plenty of time for the BU to get down there.

And if you're working with me, Kevin, you better get down there. Otherwise this old man will get grumpy from running all that way! 

Something we can pre-game, but I have never used this mechanic at any level, from LL through HS Varsity. I don't disagree with it, but this is not taught in Orange County.

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, Mudisfun said:

Something we can pre-game, but I have never used this mechanic at any level, from LL through HS Varsity. I don't disagree with it, but this is not taught in Orange County.

Who the hell is running the training up there? 

That's interesting. It's always been taught that way at every level of training I have been at, that BU comes back to the plate in 2 man. I even double checked in my MiLB 2 man mechanics manual to verify. It's in there, too.

Maybe JSam21 is correct, it's come out of 3/4 man mechanics.

[SeeingEyeDog]

If anything it's a practicality and courtesy to your partner. We really want the PU in full gear rounding the full diamond, potentially? In 2-man, U1 has no other responsibilities in that situation after seeing the ball down fair. By covering the plate, you might be reducing PU's workload by 90 feet. If the defense is able to get the ball back into the infield, there is likely going to be a play at the plate, maybe it will be close maybe it won't. At high school and above, most PU's will likely be trailing this play to the plate and not get a good angle or distance...on a scoring play. More of a concern is the possibility of a run down. After running around the diamond, is it really the best mechanics to have the PU take a rundown solo with U1 still "out because once we go out, we stay out"?

~Dawg

[Mudisfun]

3 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

If anything it's a practicality and courtesy to your partner. We really want the PU in full gear rounding the full diamond, potentially? In 2-man, U1 has no other responsibilities in that situation after seeing the ball down fair. By covering the plate, you might be reducing PU's workload by 90 feet. If the defense is able to get the ball back into the infield, there is likely going to be a play at the plate, maybe it will be close maybe it won't. At high school and above, most PU's will likely be trailing this play to the plate and not get a good angle or distance...on a scoring play. More of a concern is the possibility of a run down. After running around the diamond, is it really the best mechanics to have the PU take a rundown solo with U1 still "out because once we go out, we stay out"?

~Dawg

You do what your association dictates you do and how they have trained you to do it. I'm not defending the process, but where I work games, if U1 goes out, he/she stays out and does not come back into the play to take calls anywhere on the field. If I suddenly jumped and ran to home to take a play, the look of confusion I would get from the PU would be quite humorous. If I was being evaluated by my association that game, I would be marked down for using a non-prescribed by our unit mechanic.

YMMV, but this is what it is. Many of our umpires barely can get out of their own way due to mobility. Hoping they go out, stay with the play, make a call and then get all the way back home may be hoping too much.

[JonnyCat]

53 minutes ago, Mudisfun said:

Many of our umpires barely can get out of their own way due to mobility.

I'm hoping to realize this before it happens and retire.

Worst fears! Maybe its already happened and I don't know it yet! 

[JSam21]

On 2/28/2023 at 11:24 AM, Mudisfun said:

You do what your association dictates you do and how they have trained you to do it. I'm not defending the process, but where I work games, if U1 goes out, he/she stays out and does not come back into the play to take calls anywhere on the field. If I suddenly jumped and ran to home to take a play, the look of confusion I would get from the PU would be quite humorous. If I was being evaluated by my association that game, I would be marked down for using a non-prescribed by our unit mechanic.

YMMV, but this is what it is. Many of our umpires barely can get out of their own way due to mobility. Hoping they go out, stay with the play, make a call and then get all the way back home may be hoping too much.

Again, not talking smack, but this is a problem. Mechanics are mechanics. Individual units or associations shouldn't be changing them. That leads to inconsistency from area to area. I mean, I get it. Each unit/association knows the types of officials that they have and what they can and can't do.  However, IMHO, it leads to people thinking that they are the "smartest person in the room" while trying to develop some wacky mechanic. Granted, this is easier to get away with at the HS and lower level since rarely do people work with anyone outside the fiefdom. However, as soon as you start getting beyond that level and start working with people that are from other areas of the country, you better be working how the manual tells you or you're going to be in for a long day. 

I've fallen victim to this at a 3 umpire camp before. My two base umpires were developing a mechanic on the field, that went against the manual, and conveniently  left me out of the discussion. Needless to say, I wasn't happy and neither was our evaluator/instructor. 

[The Man in Blue]

On 2/28/2023 at 11:24 AM, Mudisfun said:

YMMV, but this is what it is. Many of our umpires barely can get out of their own way due to mobility. Hoping they go out, stay with the play, make a call and then get all the way back home may be hoping too much.

 

As I said earlier, I have always been taught the "abandon" technique which I have always questioned and hated.  I can agree with the notion that it may be carried over from 3-umps and done in error ... but I also think a big chunk is what @Mudisfun said.  I agree, they should be capable ... but I also know that I routinely work with two guys who are pushing 80.  I can also see some of the yokels I have worked with running their butt right into a throw or a play.

Is there a prescribed mechanic for HOW to get back to the plate?  My assumption is you want to get your tootsie into foul territory and then make your way back.  Is there a "holding" spot to wait to see if PU is leaving?

[Catch18]

Many of our umpires barely can get out of their own way due to mobility. Hoping they go out, stay with the play, make a call and then get all the way back home may be hoping too much.

I don’t mean to be harsh or critical of you, but then this same umpire you’re asking to come out from behind the plate and keep the kid all the way around the diamond? What if it’s that triple (and he better be getting close/great look at the bag, not calling it halfway from the mound), and there’s an overthrow….now he’s foot racing a 17 y.o. to the plate. Not a great work-through of mechanics.

I think it’d serve best to have as many umpires in the play as possible.

[BigBlue4u]

On 2/23/2023 at 6:07 PM, JonnyCat said:

However, the proper mechanic is for the base umpire to cover plays at the plate. There are some exceptions to this if the BU has to stay out longer to see if the ball has gone out of play, but for the most part the BU will take plays at the plate. There is usually plenty of time for the BU to get down there.

Johnny Cat, 

That's what the NFHS Umpire Manual says.  My point is this:  One umpire (PU) should be able to handle one runner.

[Mudisfun]

2 hours ago, Catch18 said:

 

I don’t mean to be harsh or critical of you, but then this same umpire you’re asking to come out from behind the plate and keep the kid all the way around the diamond? What if it’s that triple (and he better be getting close/great look at the bag, not calling it halfway from the mound), and there’s an overthrow….now he’s foot racing a 17 y.o. to the plate. Not a great work-through of mechanics.

I think it’d serve best to have as many umpires in the play as possible.

 

You are not being harsh or critical; I take no offense. I know if using this mechanic that I can get from RF to the plate without falling over myself. And to your point, a foot race between me and a 17 year old should always result in my losing... if I win, that kid needs to be running a lot more laps. Like, seriously... a LOT more laps.

I chatted with my HS IC yesterday and his response is that U1 going back to the plate is not an approved mechanic for HS, at least in our area. You can argue all you want about not everyone using the same mechanics, but this is the way it happens to be here, at least for HS. We all use the same FED rules as well, but we do not allow courtesy runners for example when other states do, so not everything is always the same even when using the same manuals. 

He went on to say that having U1 take plays at home is an advanced mechanic taught in pro school and other higher level programs and one he uses when pre-gamed with his partners. I have no problem working with someone who would want to use this mechanic, but to just assume someone is going to be there without discussing it prior would end up poorly. As mentioned before, I work games in Orange County which is well known for its very low level of baseball and extremely poor umpiring quality, so I can completely see why none of my partners in all these years have discussed using this mechanic. 

I'm going to bring this up with more of my partners and see what they are also being taught as we all work across various programs, levels and with different assigners. 

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Mudisfun said:

but we do not allow courtesy runners for example when other states do

 

Tangent: I encourage you to keep this practice.  The term "courtesy runner" is merely a synonym for "more coach shenanigans that waste game time."

[834k3r]

I asked about this mechanic specifically at our association meeting the other night. Their answer (district commissioner wasn't there, but we had a presentation from two of the evaluation committee members) was they want BU to rotate back to support the PU but that it's something crews should pre-game.

This is noteworthy to me because my local UIC told me the association previously wanted the BU to stay out once he goes out.

[SeeingEyeDog]

On 3/2/2023 at 8:49 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Is there a prescribed mechanic for HOW to get back to the plate?  My assumption is you want to get your tootsie into foul territory and then make your way back.  Is there a "holding" spot to wait to see if PU is leaving?

What my association teaches for 2-man with nobody on is once U1 has gone out (which they should verbalize with, "[Partner's Name], I'm going! I'm going!" with a swooping, pointing gesture towards your destination. PU should be moving on contact, clearing F2 and moving up the 1B line. Once PU hears or sees U1 going out they should verbalize, "[Partner Name], I've got the runner to third!"

As soon as U1 has the ball down fair, you move quickly to FOUL territory and then move quickly to the plate. As you are moving to the plate, you now have eyes on the runner and how the play may unfold. If the runner is headed to 3B, PU is either with him or hopefully just behind him. You are moving to the plate to get into The Wedge. Remember the throw to the plate (if it happens) will be coming from the right side of the field. Once you are fully in position and ready to make a call you verbalize, "[Partner Name], I've got the plate!"

There are obviously many, many scenarios that could play out here especially if you have a fast runner (expect this from your leadoff hitters!). You could have a rundown somewhere on this play or a back pick, etc...once that ball is down fair, think about the next play how you can assist based on the situation and your ability and most importantly, communicate with your partner. He or she may wave you off of your intention and give you new direction. What we are trying to avoid of course is both umpires arriving at the play and both making a call...even if you both get it right. Again, pre-game this so you know what everyone's responsibilities are.

~Dawg 

[Catch18]

You could have a rundown
~Dawg 

An excellent point to not “go out, stay out.”

Would look rather foolish standing in RF watching as you see your partner pinball between 3rd & home on a rundown, to, wait, why are we not helping our partner again?

[JonnyCat]

7 hours ago, BigBlue4u said:

Johnny Cat, 

That's what the NFHS Umpire Manual says.  My point is this:  One umpire (PU) should be able to handle one runner.

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying the NFHS has the BU covering the plate or not? maybe you can clarify for me?

In all 4 of my umpire manuals, MiLB, CCA, NFHS, and NASO 2&3 Person High School Crews, have U1 covering home.

Regardless, I'm not letting my PU take the runner into home. Unless there are extenuating circumstances as which I described, there is absolutely zero reason for the BU to not cover home.

Sure, the PU needs to be able to take that runner to home if need be, but there is almost no reason why he should have to.

[834k3r]

The possibility of a rundown was used specifically in our association meeting to explain why U1 coming back in is the association's preferred mechanic.

[BigBlue4u]

23 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Not sure I understand what you're saying here. Are you saying the NFHS has the BU covering the plate or not? maybe you can clarify for me?

In all 4 of my umpire manuals, MiLB, CCA, NFHS, and NASO 2&3 Person High School Crews, have U1 covering home.

Johnny Cat...You are correct about other umpire manuals regarding U1 covering the plate.  What I am saying is that regardless of the correct coverage, one umpire should be able to cover one runner.  Plus, if you think about it, it's much easier for the PU to take the runner all the way around (from the middle of the infield) than U1 having to run in all the way to the plate from the outfield.  For the record, I do use the mechanic as specified in the NFHS/NCAA mechanics manuals.

[Mudisfun]

On 3/3/2023 at 3:08 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

Tangent: I encourage you to keep this practice.  The term "courtesy runner" is merely a synonym for "more coach shenanigans that waste game time."

100% agree. This should be a substitute in games which 'mean something'. Off season and you want to get F2 off the bags to start gearing up? I'm all for that.

[HankC]

i like the ' "PU has all fly balls" mentality ' .

The PU always has the left field line so may as well take the right field line *all the time* as we do with runners on anyway .

i view a ' trouble ball ' as a catch/nocatch situation rather than fair/foul . its difficult to judge a running catch near the line as fair/foul when you're out .

[JSam21]

On 3/2/2023 at 7:49 PM, The Man in Blue said:

 

As I said earlier, I have always been taught the "abandon" technique which I have always questioned and hated.  I can agree with the notion that it may be carried over from 3-umps and done in error ... but I also think a big chunk is what @Mudisfun said.  I agree, they should be capable ... but I also know that I routinely work with two guys who are pushing 80.  I can also see some of the yokels I have worked with running their butt right into a throw or a play.

Is there a prescribed mechanic for HOW to get back to the plate?  My assumption is you want to get your tootsie into foul territory and then make your way back.  Is there a "holding" spot to wait to see if PU is leaving?

If you go out from A, PU should already be gone from the plate. There is nothing to read. Come back down the first base line and get to the point of the plate. 

[JSam21]

21 hours ago, HankC said:

i like the ' "PU has all fly balls" mentality ' .

The PU always has the left field line so may as well take the right field line *all the time* as we do with runners on anyway .

i view a ' trouble ball ' as a catch/nocatch situation rather than fair/foul . its difficult to judge a running catch near the line as fair/foul when you're out .

Routine fly balls, sure. ALL fly balls, absolutely not. 

Honest question... How is it more difficult to judge a catch near the line and judge fair/foul when you go out?

[NVUmp]

"Go out, stay out" is taught in Little League, which is OK for a small field.  Also, LL teaches umpiring to keep it simple, they aren't big on any sort of advanced mechanic, except a 1-3 rotation (which isn't really advanced).

Adding to this conversation, as the plate ump, when my partner goes out from "A," I'm reading he ball and the runner.  If they're going to stretch it out into a double, triple, I'm not going out towards 1B, I'm heading closer to second.

[HankC]

3 hours ago, JSam21 said:

Honest question... How is it more difficult to judge a catch near the line and judge fair/foul when you go out?

if you have to tell whether the ball is touched within . say , a foot inside or outside the foul line , an engineer might say that the angle , and the error , is smaller from a distance than up close .

[JSam21]

7 hours ago, HankC said:

if you have to tell whether the ball is touched within . say , a foot inside or outside the foul line , an engineer might say that the angle , and the error , is smaller from a distance than up close .

So I think you may have a misunderstanding of what going out truly is, I could be wrong though. Something as simple as turning your back to the plate from the A position is considered “going out”. We also need to understand that perception is reality in the world of sports officiating. What would be perceived as a more credible position: A. Someone 200’+ away or B. Someone 60’ away? 
 

Going out on balls like this gives our rulings, as well as us, more credibility.