Are catchers no longer striving to frame pitches in your area??

[Recontra]

19 hours ago, Kevin_K said:

I have found in the past that when I do not track the pitch all the way to the glove on every pitch I struggle to sometimes find the ball off the bat. When my tracking is where it needs to be, I see the ball off the bat every time whether it is toward the field, off to one side or the other , or straight back. When I get lazy or forgetful about tracking all the way to the glove sometimes I find myself looking for the ball off the bat.

Boom!  If I'm struggling to immediately find a batted ball, my 1st thought is always that I must have given up on the pitch somewhere in front of the plate--and I think most of the time that is the cause. Not knowing where the hell the batted ball is, that's just the symptom of my improper use of eyes. Recognizing the symptom of the problem often helps me to correct the cause mid-game.

[The Man in Blue]

1 hour ago, Richvee said:

For those of you who call high school and above and claim the catcher shouldn’t influence your call…..Tell me how it goes next time you call a strike on a low breaking ball that just catches the knee at the front of the plate and F2 pancakes it into the dirt. 

It goes like this: [str]IIIIIKE [t]HREE!! (Followed by a safe sign and a "Run dummy" look.)

... and then the batter can have his usual tantrum followed by the coaches' "think I'm so sly" comments that also come when the batter looks at the one right down the middle for strike three.

The only coaches (both of them) that I have ever had criticize me for NOT allowing the catcher to call the game were both locally infamous a-holes who held themselves in self-elevated status and were used to bullying umpires because of their status (one softball, one baseball).  Guess what ... I was still working their games when I left the Midwest.

So ... it went just fine.  Oh, and for the sake of citations ...

NFHS 2-35 (NFHS. 2020 NFHS Baseball Rules Book . NFHS. Kindle Edition. )

SECTION 35 STRIKE ZONE The strike zone is that space over home plate, the top of which is halfway between the batter’s shoulders and the waistline, and the bottom being the knees, when he assumes his natural batting stance. The height of the strike zone is determined by the batter’s normal batting stance. If he crouches or leans over to make the shoulder line lower, the umpire determines height by what would be the batter’s normal stance.

 

OBR DEFINITIONS OF TERMS (p. 152, 2022 edition)

The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball. (For diagram of STRIKE ZONE, see Appendix 5.)

The picture in the Appendix does not feature a catcher's mitt ...

 

 

 

[Richvee]

1 hour ago, The Man in Blue said:

It goes like this: [str]IIIIIKE [t]HREE!! (Followed by a safe sign and a "Run dummy" look.)

... and then the batter can have his usual tantrum followed by the coaches' "think I'm so sly" comments that also come when the batter looks at the one right down the middle for strike three.

The only coaches (both of them) that I have ever had criticize me for NOT allowing the catcher to call the game were both locally infamous a-holes who held themselves in self-elevated status and were used to bullying umpires because of their status (one softball, one baseball).  Guess what ... I was still working their games when I left the Midwest.

So ... it went just fine.  Oh, and for the sake of citations ...

NFHS 2-35 (NFHS. 2020 NFHS Baseball Rules Book . NFHS. Kindle Edition. )

SECTION 35 STRIKE ZONE The strike zone is that space over home plate, the top of which is halfway between the batter’s shoulders and the waistline, and the bottom being the knees, when he assumes his natural batting stance. The height of the strike zone is determined by the batter’s normal batting stance. If he crouches or leans over to make the shoulder line lower, the umpire determines height by what would be the batter’s normal stance.

 

OBR DEFINITIONS OF TERMS (p. 152, 2022 edition)

The STRIKE ZONE is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the kneecap. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter’s stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball. (For diagram of STRIKE ZONE, see Appendix 5.)

The picture in the Appendix does not feature a catcher's mitt ...

 

 

 

That’s fine. You do you. 

[JonnyCat]

4 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

.. and which of those "proper clinics, camps, or schools" teaches you to ignore the rules and do your own thing?

I'm glad the dozens of disreputable clinics, camps, or schools I have attended in the last 12-13 years haven't been one that teaches you to allow the catcher to call your strikes for you.  Difference of opinion.

Stop mischaracterizing what I said to suit your own narrative. Proper tracking absolutely gives you a better zone. If you aren't able to understand what I'm saying, that's fine. Like Richvee said: "you do you." How ever you want to call your games, I don't give a SH*#.

People who know, know.

[Richvee]

3 hours ago, LRZ said:

The eephus pitch always gave me problems, no matter where the catcher caught it. In another thread, Richvee, you mentioned another umpire saying something about umpiring to the dugout: an eephus pitch through the strike zone is a strike, but it surely won't look like one to the batting team's bench.

I don’t think I’ve seen more than 2 eephus pitches in 15 years. Unless you count all where catchers don’t matter. There’s always exceptions. Yeah, umpire for the cameras. I’m not at any level where I’m umpiring for the electronic strike zone. F2 sets up inside,  f1 throws a slider that may have clipped the outside corner that F 2 almost has to dive to catch…. Is a ball all day, every day at every level I work. 

[wolfe_man]

4 hours ago, Richvee said:

...Tell me how it goes next time you call a strike on a low breaking ball that just catches the knee at the front of the plate and F2 pancakes it into the dirt. 

Lol I had this last night. Sr Legion game.

Nothing from coaches, but kid didn’t like it.

Curveball that dropped through and caught a good 4-5 inches of the plate as it dove to the right-outside corner (caught before hitting ground beyond the plate, but outside now). I banged it as 3K due to flight of ball in the zone, but batter wasn’t happy with it.

If the catcher had caught it better, then  it would’ve helped my call look better. I need/want all strikes called, so I banged it anyhow.

FWIW, I probably wouldn’t have called it a strike in a HS Varsity game due to the optics.

[JonnyCat]

9 hours ago, Velho said:

Not arguing, I'm asking...

Strictly in the context of calling a taken pitch a ball or strike, can you help me understand how action beyond the back of the plate influences deciding if the ball passed through the strike zone?

The two reasons that have been provided are to slow down your timing (ok, I can follow that) and

The implied message seems to be "if you call it a strike on these, you'll be hearing it from the OC so ball the butchered borderline pitch". That's a way it can be read but maybe that's not what you meant?

Tracking the pitch all the way into the mitt ensures that you are watching the entirety of the pitch. Many times what happens if you aren't tracking all the way to the mitt, umpires often give up on the pitch too early and are making a decision based on what they see even before the pitch reaches the plate. In other words, you have given up on that pitch maybe a couple of feet before it even crosses the plate by taking your eyes off the pitch. You have made a determination of the pitch before it crosses the plate. When doing cage work at any reputable clinic, the instructors will watch your eyes while receiving a pitch. If you're not looking at the pitch all the way through the strike zone, you're loosing sight of that pitch too early and assuming it's going to be a strike or a ball before it crosses the plate. By not tracking all the way to the mitt, you're taking your eyes off of it too early. Anyone that has gone to a good clinic, camp, or school understands this concept. Those that don't, haven't been properly trained, hate to be harsh, but that's the truth.

With regards to working upper levels, you will be hearing it from the OC. Whether that's right or wrong, it's the reality. When a catcher butchers a borderline pitch, he's denied you the opportunity to use all of the information given to you to render a decision. Part of that is optics, as well. You can use where the pitch was caught to help determine where the pitch may or may not have crossed the plate. You don't use where the catcher caught the pitch as the sole determination of whether it was a strike or not. It's just part of the information you use to determine balls and strikes.

Tracking is the key to calling consistent balls and strikes. It's what is taught, and what is widely recognized at all levels of umpiring. If you're not doing it right, your zone won't be consistent.. High level umpires will tell you tracking is the most important thing when calling balls and strikes.

[Recontra]

Amen JonnyCat!!

Ok, so this thread I started about catcher’s not sticking and framing pitches might have about run it’s course, as it looks like some might about be at the “Well, we’re just going to have to agree to disagree” point (and trust me, I’ve been there in the vociferous minority more than once on this forum—sometimes even angry about it—but invariably a while later—sometimes weeks later—I realize I was wrong and the true experienced veterans on this forum, who were just trying their Scout’s best to teach my stubborn ass, were actually right 😂😂)

So, I’m not qualified to be judgmental (of anyone). But, let me just try to give one possible independent reason why every umpire would always want to track every pitch all the way to the glove:  Breaking balls! Sliders and curve balls. Here in western Oregon with the Marine Layer, the wind changes a lot every afternoon into the evening, every Spring and Summer. And it varies day to day. It often varies from the 1st inning to the 5th. The same slider that was breaking late and missed high in the 1st is breaking sooner and hitting in the 4th. It’s frequently a challenge to call the top of the zone throughout the game, because the breaking point of pitches changes as the game goes on. But here’s what I do know:  Regardless of the wind, if a catcher is properly set up and gloves a breaking ball below the batter’s belt, there’s no way that pitch did not pass through the strike zone. No fricking way! Boom! That’s a strike!

 

Confession time of my own: I worked my 1st volunteer LL Majors game last night—my HS playoff season is over, Legion hasn’t started, so I leaped at the opportunity to give my local LL league a game—we were so short of HS umpires this season, it truly was my 1st opportunity as we were all working every available day. I had a blast working last night solo for HC’s, players, and parents who were overjoyed to have an actual umpire, any umpire 😄—every other available volunteer LL umpire was elsewhere. Nobody was throwing above the 50’s. There were a lot of bloopers. I actually made the following audible on a blooper I balled. “Ok, I know he caught it below the belt, but that pitch was high!”  It’s sometimes easy to think out loud when you’re working solo 😂😂 But for pitches in the 70+ mph zone . . . and fast enough to be true breaking balls . . . I posit my theorem is solid.

Just a thought for why even someone who was only concerned with the area over the plate, would nevertheless still want to track that and every pitch all the way to the mitt. Just saying.

Again, Amen to JonnyCat!!

 

[ErichKeane]

12 hours ago, wolfe_man said:

Lol I had this last night. Sr Legion game.

Nothing from coaches, but kid didn’t like it.

Curveball that dropped through and caught a good 4-5 inches of the plate as it dove to the right-outside corner (caught before hitting ground beyond the plate, but outside now). I banged it as 3K due to flight of ball in the zone, but batter wasn’t happy with it.

If the catcher had caught it better, then  it would’ve helped my call look better. I need/want all strikes called, so I banged it anyhow.

FWIW, I probably wouldn’t have called it a strike in a HS Varsity game due to the optics.

I'm younger kids, up to 14 U, and I call the 'ball catches the corner of the zone and falls out' all day.  Kids/coaches sometimes get grumpy about it, but if you're calling it all day, its no big deal.

[The Man in Blue]

Calling college underclassmen and HS seniors today for a local "friendly tournament" ... 

Balls is coming in out of the zone and starts to break towards the zone ... but the catcher stands up, blocks me out, and then muffs the catch.  I call "Ball!"

Catcher thought it was a strike and thinks he knows what he did.  He asks, "Was that on me Blue because I didn't catch it?"

Me: "No, it was on you because you stood up and couldn't see if it got to the zone or not.  I need to see the zone, not what you do afterwards."

Coach comes out between innings and (pleasantly) asks the same thing.  "No sir, I had a ball coming in and breaking, possibly into a strike.  He stood up and I couldn't see where it went though."

Coach: "So it wasn't on the muffed catch?  Good on you, Blue."  

[JonnyCat]

On 6/4/2022 at 8:19 PM, The Man in Blue said:

Calling college underclassmen and HS seniors today for a local "friendly tournament" ... 

Balls is coming in out of the zone and starts to break towards the zone ... but the catcher stands up, blocks me out, and then muffs the catch.  I call "Ball!"

Catcher thought it was a strike and thinks he knows what he did.  He asks, "Was that on me Blue because I didn't catch it?"

Me: "No, it was on you because you stood up and couldn't see if it got to the zone or not.  I need to see the zone, not what you do afterwards."

Coach comes out between innings and (pleasantly) asks the same thing.  "No sir, I had a ball coming in and breaking, possibly into a strike.  He stood up and I couldn't see where it went though."

Coach: "So it wasn't on the muffed catch?  Good on you, Blue."  

Well that clears it up.

Edited June 6, 2022 by JonnyCat
Edited for being overly sarcastic. Apologies to the Man in Blue

[Velho]

Well this has been an interesting conversation...

Hopefully everyone agrees this should be called a strike regardless of being caught or anything else. 

 

[The Man in Blue]

22 hours ago, JonnyCat said:

Well that clears it up. We've been doing it wrong the whole time. Thank you for bringing this to our attention and now we can get back to the business of umpiring the way you want us to. Thank God for you working this tournament, otherwise we would continue to screw up all of our games. Me and Richvee are better umpires knowing that this coach holds you in such high esteem. We are not worthy and will follow all of your advice on umpiring from now until eternity. Thank you so much for showing us the light!

What is your problem?  I've left this at "you do you" and deliberately not responded to a number of your snide posts here because we aren't going to agree on this.  I posted citations that show the technique you apply is from the MSU Manual.  Yet you continue to post personal attack after personal attack because you have nothing to support your position beyond you and Richee paid to go to some unnamed for-profit camp run by some big time umpires and they told you to let the catcher call balls and strikes so their mom doesn't get mad at you.  Yay for Jonny.  🙄

Mods, chastise me, boot me, lock it up ... whatever.  This is past ridiculous.

[johnnyg08]

Fellow umpires, please get back on topic and try to avoid the patronizing back & forth comments. 

[ErichKeane]

FWIW: The way I can sleep at night after a game is to call the strikezone as in the book (or as somewhat extended, fairly, to keep the game moving).  I'm not about to punish a pitcher because his catcher couldn't catch a cold, or because some know-nothing dad told him to make every low and outside pitch look high and inside.  Once the ball touches the glove, the useful information to the umpire is done.

I haven't done any fancy camps, just played for a few decades, and am trying to be the ump I always appreciated and respected when I was on the field.

Though, I do exclusively younger-than-14 (9U to 14U at times).  Some of those groups throw the Eephus pitch all day long, so its not uncommon to call a strike that bounces 6 inches below the plate.

[JonnyCat]

11 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

some unnamed for-profit camp run by some big time umpires and they told you to let the catcher call balls and strikes so their mom doesn't get mad at you. 

You're once again mischaracterizing my comments again. When did I ever say I let catchers call balls and strikes for me? Hint: I never did.

My issue, which you seem to want to obfuscate is this. You said, and I quote: "Tracking is not a mechanic taught to give you a better strike zone, it is taught to slow down your calls."

That is simply incorrect. It is absolutely taught at all levels for a better and more consistent strike zone. Timing is a separate skill. You can still see the the ball all the way to the mitt, and still be quick on your timing. They are two different things. Tracking is the proper methodology for calling pitches. Timing helps you with processing the information in order to render a decision.

If you don't understand the concept of tracking, or how it is taught, that's fine. But don't be upset when someone corrects you for misinformation. The nuance of a catcher butchering a pitch at the higher levels is only a side note used as an example. If you want to extrapolate that into me saying I let the catchers call balls and strikes for me, that is simply not true.

Oh, and that unnamed for profit camp I attended. That would be Umpire Training Academy (previously known as The Umpire School), Class of 2015. But what would they know?

[noumpere]

I'm almost sorry I missed this thread while I was out last week.  Almost.

IMO (and it's not worth two cents, even with inflation), the tracking is NOT (primarily) so you can see whether or where or how F2 catches the ball.  It's more akin to a follow-through in throwing a ball, or hitting a golf ball, or punching in martial arts, or .... -- base on pure physics, nothing that is done after the ball leaves the club / bat / hand matters to where the ball goes.  But, if you don't have a good follow-through, you won't hit / throw the ball as well.  And, tracking the ball past the plate doesn't change where the ball passed the plate.  But, if you don't track it past the plate, you won't see where it passed the plate as well.