Interference following Obstruction

[Catch18]

At our pre state tournament 3- & 4-man clinic, fellow umpire threw out an interesting situation he had in a varsity game last week.

 

R2, clean base hit to the outfield. 3B obstructs R2 and causes him to stumble and fall rounding 3rd (there was contact, hence the stumbling). OHC sees this and picks. his. runner. up. R2 continued to run home and there was no play on him.

 

What do you have?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Richvee]

We still have alive ball after the obstruction.  The obstruction happens before 3b. Runner protected to 3rd. I don’t think this would change the interference call. Nothing says a coach can assist a runner because he was obstructed. I’ve got an out. 

[maven]

This kind of question is difficult only if we forget the definition of 'award'. An award is the right to run the bases without liability to be put out, but that running must itself be legal.

When coach physically assisted the runner, it nullified his award. Both the OBS and the coach INT are live ball infractions: the runner is called out immediately, however.

R2 is out, live ball, BR gets what he gets.

[Rich Ives]

Does it depend on the rules set? The help would not have happened but for the obstruction. In OBR at least the remedy for obstruction is to negate the effects of the obstruction. Thus without the obstruction there would have been no coach help. 

 

And Richvee,  if the runner was obstructed rounding 3B from 2B  on a normal single he would have scored so the base award should have been home, not 3B.

[LRZ]

59 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

The help would not have happened but for the obstruction. In OBR at least the remedy for obstruction is to negate the effects of the obstruction. Thus without the obstruction there would have been no coach help. 

At first, this sounded reasonable, but then I thought, "The coach does not have to interfere." I agree with Richvee: "Nothing says a coach can assist a runner because he was obstructed."

Absent the coach's interference, and considering the obstruction occurred while R2 was rounding 3B, I agree with Rich Ives: award R2 home.

[maven]

1 hour ago, LRZ said:

At first, this sounded reasonable, but then I thought, "The coach does not have to interfere." I agree with Richvee: "Nothing says a coach can assist a runner because he was obstructed."

Incorrect reasoning. 

The penalty for OBS in all codes is a base award that nullifies the act of obstruction. No other remedies are permitted by rule. 

An award by definition is the right to run the bases legally without liability to be put out. Missed bases may be appealed for an out, and MC penalized. So would coach INT be: that's not a legal advance.

[Velho]

1 minute ago, maven said:

Missed bases may be appealed for an out, and MC penalized. So would coach INT be: that's not a legal advance.

This is a great comparison for explaining why the runner would be out for coaches assistance.

[Senor Azul]

Does it depend on the rules set? 

Since you asked, Mr. Rich Ives, the answer is yes—in NCAA coach assistance is a delayed dead ball (rule 3-3e). The scenario in the OP said the runner was still able to make it home without a play being made on him. So we take the violations in the order they occurred and penalize in the same sequence.

Runner is obstructed and still easily scores—count the run. The runner is assisted by the base coach—call the runner out at the end of all play.

2021-2022 NCAA rule 3-3e. A base coach may not physically assist a runner in returning to or leaving the base.

Note: Other runners may make outs or advance on the bases.

PENALTY for e. and f.—A delayed dead ball shall be called. At the conclusion of the play, the assisted runner shall be declared out.

[Catch18]

HS sub-page. Stay on NFHS.

[The Man in Blue]

On 5/14/2022 at 8:29 PM, maven said:

This kind of question is difficult only if we forget the definition of 'award'. An award is the right to run the bases without liability to be put out, but that running must itself be legal.

When coach physically assisted the runner, it nullified his award. Both the OBS and the coach INT are live ball infractions: the runner is called out immediately, however.

R2 is out, live ball, BR gets what he gets.

I was going to disagree with this, but instead found something rather interesting.  A coach assist is NOT interference by the letter.  If it were, it would be a dead ball (which is what I was going to say).  Looking through the rules though, a coach assist results in the runner being called out but NOT a dead ball.  At no point is a coach assist actually listed as interference. 

[Senor Azul]

If you check the Index to the NFHS rule book you will find two entries that both refer to coach assistance as interference. The first one is under the heading of Coach and when you read down the list you will see the sub-entry of Interference by and the rule references (3-2-2 and 3-2-3).

Next, if you look under the heading of Interference and then down the list there is the sub-entry of Coach with the same rules references (plus one other—7-4-1f). I would say that is enough proof that the act of a base coach in assisting a runner during live ball is considered to be interference.

[Jimurray]

24 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

If you check the Index to the NFHS rule book you will find two entries that both refer to coach assistance as interference. The first one is under the heading of Coach and when you read down the list you will see the sub-entry of Interference by and the rule references (3-2-2 and 3-2-3).

Next, if you look under the heading of Interference and then down the list there is the sub-entry of Coach with the same rules references (plus one other—7-4-1f). I would say that is enough proof that the act of a base coach in assisting a runner during live ball is considered to be interference.

Good find but if it is called INT it does not have to be an immediate dead ball. For some reason I have always thought if I called that violation I would say "that's interference, he's out." and keep the ball live. The wrinkle is NCAA, where they don't call the out until after playing action ends, which would be troubling to me because a runner that is going to be out could still affect play upon him and other runners.  Of course @The Man in Bluewould cite my leniency to other retired runners continuing to run the bases so I would think the NCAA mechanic might be a point and "that's interference" or "that's assist" which should clue the defense into not playing on that runner or maybe not.

[The Man in Blue]

16 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

If you check the Index to the NFHS rule book you will find two entries that both refer to coach assistance as interference. The first one is under the heading of Coach and when you read down the list you will see the sub-entry of Interference by and the rule references (3-2-2 and 3-2-3).

Next, if you look under the heading of Interference and then down the list there is the sub-entry of Coach with the same rules references (plus one other—7-4-1f). I would say that is enough proof that the act of a base coach in assisting a runner during live ball is considered to be interference.

Perhaps a print vs. digital difference (which should not happen) ... but my digital 2020 book does not have an index.

I quickly looked at the BRD early this morning, but didn't bring it to work with me.  There was a reference to 5-1-2f ... which is the delayed dead ball section.  Coach assistance is NOT mentioned in it (that is a ball touching an illegal ball/mitt).  Perhaps something that has changed since 2016?  

5-1-1e states it is an immediate dead ball when: 

e. there is interference by a runner, batter-runner (8-4-1g), or a retired runner (3-3-1m, 8-4-1a, h or 8-4-2b, e, f, g or k), the batter (7-3-5), or by any person (3-2-3);

5-1-2 then goes on to list instances of interference that are delayed dead balls -- right after the rule that says interference by "any person" is an immediate dead ball.  🙄

Seems we have one of those discrepancies within the book.  When I say "coach assistance is not interference" it is because I cannot find anything to support using that term.  It is more of a colloquialism that is used (like catcher's interference when we know the defense cannot interfere).  I'm not saying it is nothing ... I'm saying it does not seem to be interference (by definition) which is an immediate dead ball -- except when it is not -- which this is not.  🤨  

My conclusion with citations below ... 

 

[The Man in Blue]

16 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

If you check the Index to the NFHS rule book you will find two entries that both refer to coach assistance as interference. The first one is under the heading of Coach and when you read down the list you will see the sub-entry of Interference by and the rule references (3-2-2 and 3-2-3).

Next, if you look under the heading of Interference and then down the list there is the sub-entry of Coach with the same rules references (plus one other—7-4-1f). I would say that is enough proof that the act of a base coach in assisting a runner during live ball is considered to be interference.

I know this is semantics ... but I'm always up for some antics.

Let's look at 4 rules, the 3 you cite and 1 more that is referenced in those.  (I'm using NFHS Baseball 2020.)

In order ...

3-2-2 and 3-2-3

Rule 3 Substituting–Coaching–Bench and Field Conduct–Charged Conferences

SECTION 2 COACHING

ART. 2 . . . No coach shall physically assist a runner during playing action. PENALTY: The runner shall be called out immediately. (8-4-2s).

Article 2 is specifically dealing with a coach assisting a runner.  It provides for neither a dead ball nor a delayed dead ball, just an out.  It also does not call the act interference.

ART. 3 . . . No offensive team personnel, other than the base coach, shall be near a base for which a runner is trying so that a fielder may be confused; nor be on or near the baseline in such a way as to draw a throw; nor shall the base coach or members of the team at bat fail to vacate any area needed by a fielder in his attempt to put out a batter or runner. If a thrown live ball unintentionally touches a base coach in foul territory, or a pitched or thrown ball touches an umpire, the ball is live and in play. If the coach is judged by the umpire to have interfered intentionally with the thrown ball, or interferes in fair territory, the interference penalty is invoked.

PENALTY: The ball is dead immediately and the runner is out. The batter-runner or runner may be out as in 7-4-1f and 8-4-2g. Other runners return as in 8-2-8.

Article 3 does spell out specific offensive team acts which result in a dead ball.  A coach assisting a runner is not one of those.  Disregard this reference.

7-4-1f

Rule 7 Batting

SECTION 4 BATTER IS OUT

ART. 1 . . . A batter is out when:

f. any member of the offensive team or coach other than the runner(s) interferes with a fielder who is attempting to field a foul fly ball;

Again, specific acts by the offensive team ... coach assistance of a runner is not one of them.  Disregard.

Since 8-4-2s was mentioned in the ONE section that refers to a coach assisting a runner (3-2-2), let's look at that one. 

Rule 8 Baserunning

SECTION 4 RUNNER IS OUT

ART. 2 . . . Any runner is out when he:

s. is physically assisted by a coach. (3-2-2)

A bit of a circular reference back to 3-2-2, but it does not call the act interference.  It also does not provide for either a dead ball or a delayed dead ball. 

My conclusions: In NFHS the correct action is to immediately call attention to the assist and call the runner out on the spot.  It is neither a dead ball nor a delayed dead ball, it is a live ball still.  It is an out and play on, just like a runner being forced out at a base.

[agdz59]

Deleting - I was using bad data from the internet.  Who knew there was such a thing?

[Jimurray]

1 minute ago, The Man in Blue said:

 

My conclusions: In NFHS the correct action is to immediately call attention the to assist and call the runner out on the spot.  It is neither a dead ball nor a delayed dead ball.  It is an out and play on, just like a runner being forced out at a base.

I would agree. This is a live action out and we don't have to concerned with the status of the ball. I don't know where I picked up signaling it by "That's interference, he's out." Probably at a clinic but I wouldn't argue if you want to say it differently. 

[The Man in Blue]

4 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

You missed 5-1-2f:

5-1-2   It is a delayed dead ball when:

f. a coach physically assists a runner (see 3-2-2);

I actually mentioned that in the first post about the BRD ... which book are you using? 

That is not 5-1-2f in the 2020 version I am using. 

f. a ball touches an illegal glove/mitt.   

NFHS. 2020 NFHS Baseball Rules Book . NFHS. Kindle Edition. 

I am trying to figure out when that change occurred.  Is it new or old?

[Jimurray]

4 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

You missed 5-1-2f:

5-1-2   It is a delayed dead ball when:

f. a coach physically assists a runner (see 3-2-2);

 

It is also included in the Delayed Dead Ball table at the end of that rule section.

What year is your book? They took that out when they wanted to clear up confusion about when to call it.

 

[agdz59]

Just now, The Man in Blue said:

I actually mentioned that in the first post about the BRD ... which book are you using? 

That is not 5-1-2f in the 2020 version I am using.  I am trying to figure out when that change occurred.

Interesting!  I am reading Umpire Bible's NFHS rules: https://umpirebible.com/fed/default.htm and then click on the link to Rule 5: https://umpirebible.com/fed/5.0.htm

There is is listed as '2020 NFHS Baseball Rules'. But on the default page they have a picture of the 2022 rule book.  I don't have a hard copy of the 2022 rule book so ????

[Jimurray]

6 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I actually mentioned that in the first post about the BRD ... which book are you using? 

That is not 5-1-2f in the 2020 version I am using.  I am trying to figure out when that change occurred.

Happened in 2017: The rules committee also approved an addition to Rule 8-4-2, which states that any runner is out when he is physically assisted by a coach. This rule change supports a revision in Rule 3-2-2 Penalty, which states that the runner shall be called out immediately when he is physically assisted by a coach.

[The Man in Blue]

33 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

Happened in 2017: The rules committee also approved an addition to Rule 8-4-2, which states that any runner is out when he is physically assisted by a coach. This rule change supports a revision in Rule 3-2-2 Penalty, which states that the runner shall be called out immediately when he is physically assisted by a coach.

But when did the change to 5-1-2f occur?  Right now, we have a discrepancy between 2020 and 2022.  (We know there was no 2021!)

I can find a reference to a 2013 interp about an on-deck hitter assisting a runner that also cites 5-1-2f, which leads me to think the 5-1-2f change was there prior to 2017.

 http://www.stevetheump.com/NFHS_rules.htm#2017_revisions

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

But when did the change to 5-1-2f occur?  Right now, we have a discrepancy between 2020 and 2022.  (We know there was no 2021!)

I can find a reference to a 2013 interp about an on-deck hitter assisting a runner that also cites 5-1-2f, which leads me to think the 5-1-2f change was there prior to 2017.

 http://www.stevetheump.com/NFHS_rules.htm#2017_revisions

They clarified the penalty to 3-2-2 and added 8-4-2s in 2017 but missed 5-1-2f in 2017. They removed the 5-1-2f wording in 2018 and moved 5-1-2g to f in the hard copy. Maybe the digital editions did not pick up that change which is why Umphub's 2020 is in error.

 

[The Man in Blue]

I have the 2020 digital ... but I bought the actual NFHS copy instead of pulling the free one somebody pirated on the internet.  Maybe ... allegedly.  Theoretically?  

Since it was removed from the delayed dead ball section ... do we agree with call him out on the spot and play on (as opposed to playing on, then killing it at the end to call him out)?

[Jimurray]

34 minutes ago, The Man in Blue said:

I have the 2020 digital ... but I bought the actual NFHS copy instead of pulling the free one somebody pirated on the internet.  Maybe ... allegedly.  Theoretically?  

Since it was removed from the delayed dead ball section ... do we agree with call him out on the spot and play on (as opposed to playing on, then killing it at the end to call him out)?

That is how we would do it in NFHS and OBR. OBR hasn't removed a troubling reference to immediate dead ball in their rules but I believe interps keep it alive. NCAA seems to wait to the end of playing action and calls a delayed dead ball.