NFHS baseball thrown bat

[Guest Strilla]

Left handed batter in a NFHS unintentionally throws bat towards opposing teams on deck circle.  Is there any penalty to this?

Now let's say the batter is warned to not do it and does it again, what would a hypothetical penalty be?

I've seen debates on not a problem at all, to you warn the batter/team and if they offend again you either eject or restrict the player, but all seem to agree that it's not an out.

FYI the batter was called out on a run scoring hit.  

[Senor Azul]

2019 FED rule 3-3 ART. 1 . . . A coach, player, substitute, attendant or other bench personnel shall not:

c. carelessly throw a bat;

PENALTY: At the end of playing action, the umpire shall issue a warning to the coach of the team involved and the next offender on that team shall be ejected…

3-3-1 l. deliberately throw a bat, helmet, etc.;

PENALTY: The umpire shall eject the offender from the game. Failure to comply shall result in game being forfeited…

2019 NFHS Case Book Play 3.3.1 SITUATION CC:  After hitting a line drive toward F5, B1 releases the bat, which strikes F2 or the umpire. The act was judged by the umpire to be (a) intentional or (b) unintentional. RULING:  In (a) and (b), this is a delayed dead-ball situation. In (a), the offender will be ejected from the game. If his fair hit ball is a base hit, he will be replaced with a substitute runner. In (b), the umpire will warn the coach of that player’s team that the next player on that team to violate the rule shall be ejected from the game.

[noumpere]

"carelessly" throw the bat -- by rule, a warning, followed by ejection of the next offender on that team.While not part of the formal rules, umpires might choose to .... admonish?...  a player who ...aggressively discards.... a bat before going to the formal warning stage.

"deliberately" throw the bat -- ejection.

All in rule 3.  Someone will provide the exact quote later.

It's never an out.

 

 

[MadMax]

6 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's never an out.

7 hours ago, Guest Strilla said:

Left handed batter in a NFHS unintentionally throws bat towards opposing teams on deck circle.  Is there any penalty to this?

What if it had gone towards his own team's batting circle? What then? Still warning? Still calling the batter Out on the next one? 

How many times have we seen bats leave the batter's grip, even on the professional level, and go helicoptering into the dugouts, the backstops, and the stands? Merely for lack of pine tar, lack of batting gloves, or a malfunctioned bat (axe-handled, knob breaks, knob fluted, etc.). Everyone has a collective gasp of alarm, we hope everyone's alright, and we observe and make sure batter gets that resolved. So why is it we get all up-in-arms over a flung / slung bat? 

Ooooo... 🤯... because he (the bat slinger) got a hit off of it, that's why. So uncouth of him, so uncaring, so... so... (here comes the big one!) unsportsmanlike!!! So we reach into some weird headspace of "knowing" that that (bat fling) ain't right, but an Ejection is too harsh and confrontational... so... an Out! I'll threaten with an Out! Yeah! That'll teach 'em! 

8 hours ago, Guest Strilla said:

FYI the batter was called out on a run scoring hit.

And this is yet another instance of viral umpiring.

[SH0102]

I agree with madmax but will inject that sometimes local youth leagues have a rule that a batter who carelessly throws bat is out, so it’s possible the umpire was a young/new umpire whose experience was mostly in leagues that have that stipulation.  We still are to know the rules but i know I’ve made mistakes so this one I *could* understand at least where it came from.

Doesnt absolve but it’s not like that’s not a rule ANYWHERE. Now, if he’s a veteran umpire, no excuses

[LRZ]

One local rec league has this rule: "For bats thrown by the batter, the umpire shall give a warning for the first offense. On subsequent offenses, the batter shall be declared out and the ball dead (no advancement by other runners or defensive plays allowed.)"

The league has two age divisions, 13-15 and 16-19, and the rule applies to both. Note, too, that it does not distinguish between "careless" (i.e., unintentional?) and "intentional." Note further that, as I read it, the rule is batter-specific: the warning is to "the batter" and not to the team generally.

[SH0102]

31 minutes ago, LRZ said:

One local rec league has this rule: "For bats thrown by the batter, the umpire shall give a warning for the first offense. On subsequent offenses, the batter shall be declared out and the ball dead (no advancement by other runners or defensive plays allowed.)"

The league has two age divisions, 13-15 and 16-19, and the rule applies to both. Note, too, that it does not distinguish between "careless" (i.e., unintentional?) and "intentional." Note further that, as I read it, the rule is batter-specific: the warning is to "the batter" and not to the team generally.

Yes, the local Rec leagues and even travel tournaments don’t want kids ejected for that, so it’s “easier” just to call them out instead.

Thats fine , but then when those umpires move up to HS, this is what you get until they learn the difference

[Jimurray]

44 minutes ago, SH0102 said:

Yes, the local Rec leagues and even travel tournaments don’t want kids ejected for that, so it’s “easier” just to call them out instead.

Thats fine , but then when those umpires move up to HS, this is what you get until they learn the difference

Local rules, local fools. The kid can ground out 3 or 4 times in a game and clock the catcher and/or umpire. And then show up in HS with the same bad habit because his earlier coaches did not address it due to less severe penalty. 

[MadMax]

5 hours ago, SH0102 said:

Yes, the local Rec leagues and even travel tournaments don’t want kids ejected for that, so it’s “easier” just to call them out instead.

Well that’s nonsense. How is the Out administered or applied? Is it treated like Interference and a instant dead ball? What if the defense (potentially) turns a double play on it? If you treat it as a delayed dead ball, does he (offending Batter) obtain 1B, and then be declared Out (so it’s treated as a Time play)? Or, is he considered Out before reaching 1B? 

See the Pandora’s box 📦 this opens? There is absolutely no way you’re going to see consistency on this! 

 

[Velho]

Enter my Little League cone of silence...

We let people believe they can be called out or even ejected for the unintentional thrown bat. Even go so far as not correcting coaches when they tell players that but, the truth is, there is nothing we can really do about it. To borrow from Robin Williams, it's like a police officer without a gun: 'stop... or I'll say 'stop' again'.

Personally, I tell the batter they'll hit the ball further if they follow through with two hands. It's in my trio of sayings with telling them a HBP feel better when you come around to score and the most important thing anyone should have to say after the game is 'chocolate or vanilla?' 

[Senor Azul]

I found a website called llumpires.com and I think it is owned by Kevin Hunter. His site is not directly associated with or endorsed by Little League. There is a blog about the topic of throwing bats that is dated June 10, 2016. Here is an excerpt that might help you, Mr. Velho.

I was at a Little League clinic at which Andy Konyar, who was then the Umpire-In-Chief for all of Little League, was asked this question. Here’s what he said:

Since this topic isn’t explicitly covered by the rulebook, it falls within the boundaries of Rule 9.01(c) – the “the umpire gets to rule” rule. That being said, umpires don’t get to “make up” reasons to call a batter out, even under 9.01(c). The reasons why a batter may be called out are listed in the book, and this isn’t one of them. So calling the batter out for throwing a bat isn’t allowed.

At the same time, this is behavior that we want to discourage. In an extreme case, a batter could seriously hurt someone if he/she is careless with the bat. Thus, this is what he recommended:

The first time a particular batter lets a bat go flying, warn the batter. If the same batter repeats the offense, go to the coach, and give the coach two options: the coach can either bench the player for the remainder of the game, or else you will eject the player.

An ejection, he pointed out, will carry a mandatory one-game suspension, so most coaches would be willing to go along with the “benching.” Either way, the player won’t be throwing the bat a third time during the game, and will be getting a strong message that he/she should change his/her ways in the future. But this is a per-player thing – if Billy gets warned, you don’t then take Richie out of the game the first time he throws a bat – Richie gets his own warning.

[Guest LouB]

Problem with Andy's answer is normally the players that throw bats are the weaker batters/hitters so the manager will chose the ejection so he doesn't have to play the kid the next game.  If it happens to be a better player he'll get benched for the rest of the game so he can play the next game.

Local rule: 1st offense, warning, 2nd offense removal from the game. 

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, Velho said:

 I tell the batter they'll hit the ball further if they follow through with two hands. 

An umpire lying? Is that kosher? 

 

[MadMax]

3 hours ago, Senor Azul said:

That being said, umpires don’t get to “make up” reasons to call a batter out, even under 9.01(c). The reasons why a batter may be called out are listed in the book, and this isn’t one of them. So calling the batter out for throwing a bat isn’t allowed.

This is the most important, most crucial interpretation of and on the Rules. Period. 

I will defend any fellow umpire’s judgement to the nines. I will step in and correct any partner on a ruling if the rule(s) is/are being misapplied, and I’ll do it as cleanly and unemotionally as possible. But I will not tolerate making a rule (s#!t) up, especially when it is the overarching wisdom that we’re not to. 

I emphatically implore you, don’t let partners and colleagues pull this crap. 

[Guest someump]

I knew it was in the rules;thanks for helping me find it,I knew it was an ejection but I like others was telling the coach it was an out to lighten the situation. Then had the coach tell me that in 30 years he never heard of that.He said was that a nfhs rule. I said it's a rule in any league (20?)I ever umpired in 20 years.