Botched appeal play - balk?

[udbrky]

https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1439425115687620612/pu/vid/1184x664/Qu8_vJmlo6H1IDGw.mp4?tag=12

[maven]

It appeared that F1 stepped toward 3B without throwing there, and that he was still engaged when he stepped.

It might have been allowed (that is, ruled not a violation of 6.02(a)(2)) due to its being for an appeal, not a pickoff. I don't know MLB guidance on that issue.

[Jimurray]

18 minutes ago, maven said:

It appeared that F1 stepped toward 3B without throwing there, and that he was still engaged when he stepped.

It might have been allowed (that is, ruled not a violation of 6.02(a)(2)) due to its being for an appeal, not a pickoff. I don't know MLB guidance on that issue.

Looks like it developed into a feint and thus a balk. If he had immediately thrown to F5 touching 3B I think that appeal would be obvious and ruled on even if F5 immediately threw to HP to get the current R3. The ball ended up with F5 at 3B but they did not consider that an appeal so then you have a balk for feinting to 3B.

[johnnyg08]

I think it's an offense initiated play after continuous action had ceased to negate Arizona's intent to appeal that R3 left early to wipe the run. 

 

 

[Jimurray]

37 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I think it's an offense initiated play after continuous action had ceased to negate Arizona's intent to appeal that R3 left early to wipe the run. 

 

 

It was initiated by the offense but if the defense had not reacted and threw to 3B from the rubber we would have a valid appeal. But by reacting to the offense and feinting to 3B do we have a balk?

[Replacematt]

45 minutes ago, Jimurray said:

It was initiated by the offense but if the defense had not reacted and threw to 3B from the rubber we would have a valid appeal. But by reacting to the offense and feinting to 3B do we have a balk?

I don't see why we wouldn't.

[Jimurray]

25 minutes ago, Matt said:

I don't see why we wouldn't.

Upon reviewing my MLBTV replay there is one angle that shows a definite step off by F1. There was no balk. Initially F1 faked a throw to hold the runner which is not a play and the ball could have gone to 3B as an appeal. But then F1, now legally disengaged, ran at the runner which is a play so when the ball went to F5 touching 3B we no longer have an appeal. 

[johnnyg08]

Here's a very long clip of the play w/ both home & away feeds. 

The AZ announcers seem to have no idea what's happening...the Houston crew does a much better job of recognizing what's happening.

 

[maven]

Yep. Crap video in OP. F1 obviously stepped off before the feint to 3B. Legal.

[flyingron]

CCS analysis here (on the missed appeal part):  https://www.closecallsports.com/2021/09/losing-appeal-astros-draw-d-backs-into.html

The original post video did have a nice split screen showing the timing between the original fly ball and R3 leaving the base.

[johnnyg08]

at 3:56 in this video, there's the split screen shot as well as the Cliff Notes version of the analysis 🙂

 

 

[Thunderheads]

I'm terrible at merging, but @johnnyg08 ... can you throw this in with the CCS post about this so it all goes together?  

[johnnyg08]

13 minutes ago, Thunderheads said:

I'm terrible at merging, but @johnnyg08 ... can you throw this in with the CCS post about this so it all goes together?  

I'll lock the CCS post and link this thread in that post since this one was here first. 

[Thunderheads]

38 minutes ago, johnnyg08 said:

I'll lock the CCS post and link this thread in that post since this one was here first. 

Ok, but Gil has his own "page/section" .... 

[johnnyg08]

He does and there is literally zero discussion there. 

 

[beerguy55]

As I understand it, dead ball appeals aside, I believe in FED they would still be allowed to appeal because it was the offense that initiated the action - is that right?

 

Besides that, I'd like to see the circumstances around time being called...it may have been allowed a little too quickly, as it seems several players on the defense were calling for an appeal to third, very shortly after the throw from the outfield, but by then the play was dead.

If the play is still live, it's moot.

The interesting thing here is, even if they stuck with making the appeal, R3 likely scores, making it a tie game anyway.   It's a low risk scenario for the offense.   Arizona was outcoached by Houston.  They tell their runner to go...F1/F5 should have been told "if this happens" step on third then go for the runner - this would, frankly, be the same thing if R3 had just simply returned to third - like on a pick off attempt...F5 may have been tempted to try to tag him out first, then touch the base.  

If anything, R3 should have left REALLY early...just go for the steal.

Whitey Herzog did this back in the 80's as well.

 

[Jimurray]

7 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

As I understand it, dead ball appeals aside, I believe in FED they would still be allowed to appeal because it was the offense that initiated the action - is that right?

 

Besides that, I'd like to see the circumstances around time being called...it may have been allowed a little too quickly, as it seems several players on the defense were calling for an appeal to third, very shortly after the throw from the outfield, but by then the play was dead.

If the play is still live, it's moot.

The interesting thing here is, even if they stuck with making the appeal, R3 likely scores, making it a tie game anyway.   It's a low risk scenario for the offense.   Arizona was outcoached by Houston.  They tell their runner to go...F1/F5 should have been told "if this happens" step on third then go for the runner - this would, frankly, be the same thing if R3 had just simply returned to third - like on a pick off attempt...F5 may have been tempted to try to tag him out first, then touch the base.  

If anything, R3 should have left REALLY early...just go for the steal.

Whitey Herzog did this back in the 80's as well.

 

If F1 continued with the appeal throw after his arm fake had R3 stumble they probably would have gotten R3 after F5 caught the throw. So if put in that position the defense should not take rubber until he is immediately ready to throw to 3B. R3 should book it home as soon as the ball is put into play. The question is how much of a lead do you allow R3 when you put the ball in play. The only requirement for a retouch is after a foul ball but I think we would extend to any dead ball if someone tried an 89’ lead. 

[noumpere]

16 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

As I understand it, dead ball appeals aside, I believe in FED they would still be allowed to appeal because it was the offense that initiated the action - is that right?

Correct.  And in NCAA.

16 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

If the play is still live, it's moot.

It's not if the ball is live or dead.  It's if action is relaxed.

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, noumpere said:

It's not if the ball is live or dead.  It's if action is relaxed.

I'm not sure I understand this...if action is relaxed, but the play/ball is still live - no ump has called "time" or otherwise killed the play - the defense can still just step on third and say "he left early".  They don't need to step on the rubber and step off and all that.

Do you mean if action relaxes, the ball goes back to the pitcher, he steps on the rubber and then goes through the appeal process...with time never called (like what happens at most non-pro levels)?  That makes sense there...if he then plays the runner he loses the appeal.

[noumpere]

15 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm not sure I understand this...if action is relaxed, but the play/ball is still live - no ump has called "time" or otherwise killed the play - the defense can still just step on third and say "he left early".  They don't need to step on the rubber and step off and all that.

Do you mean if action relaxes, the ball goes back to the pitcher, he steps on the rubber and then goes through the appeal process...with time never called (like what happens at most non-pro levels)?  That makes sense there...if he then plays the runner he loses the appeal.

If action is unrelaxed, then the defense does NOT lose it's right to an appeal if it plays on the offense.

If action is relaxed, the defense DOES lose it's right to appeal if it plays on the offense -- under OBR (under FED the defense does not lose the right if the offenseinitiates the play)

[Jimurray]

8 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

I'm not sure I understand this...if action is relaxed, but the play/ball is still live - no ump has called "time" or otherwise killed the play - the defense can still just step on third and say "he left early".  They don't need to step on the rubber and step off and all that.

Do you mean if action relaxes, the ball goes back to the pitcher, he steps on the rubber and then goes through the appeal process...with time never called (like what happens at most non-pro levels)?  That makes sense there...if he then plays the runner he loses the appeal.

If the continuous action created by the batted ball ends, action has relaxed, they can appeal with the live ball as you say. But a throw out of play or a play on a runner at that point would negate any further appeal. After R3 was safe they could continue to play on other runners and even play on R3 if he went home and still be able to appeal. But once action was relaxed any play or throw out of play negates an appeal.