Force 3 Defender HSM: $200 piece of crap?!?!?!?!?

[mac266]

Umpires,

This hockey style helmet is supposed to be the best thing going.  I found one online and had it shipped to my house, only to discover it was sent to me from a returns warehouse in NY, meaning someone had returned it previously.  The pad that is supposed to protect my chin was missing entirely, which would put the shock absorbing spring directly against my face.  They accepted the return at a physical store, and ordered another one.  

The replacement arrived today, AND IT'S MISSING THE SAME PIECE!!!  It's not the same one I returned; this is another one with the same problem.  The retailer shipped it to me from the same returns warehouse, meaning someone else has also returned this one.  I'm absolutely livid.  Who in the hell is not inspecting returned items to determine WHY they were returned????

The retailer, by the way, is Dick's Sporting Goods.  They obviously have problem with their own procedures, but my question is about the helmet.  

The same problem on both helmets tells me this is a systemic issue.  Has anyone who owns the Force 3 "Defender" HSM had this problem?  

[SeeingEyeDog]

This is an unbelievably sad state of affairs. This is what happens when the world is left with the last few big box stores...and Amazon. My grandparents used to complain about the state of customer service in the 70's...I wonder what they'd say now? When I was a kid umpiring LL, we had a mom and pop sporting goods store in a strip mall a few towns over. It was the only one my parents could find that was willing to order umpire equipment. I remember the patience and pride the salesman took with us reviewing the catalogs and allowing us to order several chest protectors, masks and shin guards so, I could try them all on and get the best fit even though we were only buying one of each. A few months after I got the chest protector, I had a problem with the harness. I took it back to the shop and they ordered a replacement and had it overnighted on their dime. My family in turn made sure we always bought our sporting goods from them for the next 10 years, until my younger brother left for college. A different era, indeed...

@mac266, I would try contacting Force3 at 315 - 367 - 2331 or support@force3progear.com and ask if you can do a swap with them directly. You may have to pay shipping to Milford, CT, but I would think they would pay to ship back to you.

~Dawg

 

[mac266]

12 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

 

@mac266, I would try contacting Force3 at 315 - 367 - 2331 or support@force3progear.com and ask if you can do a swap with them directly. You may have to pay shipping to Milford, CT, but I would think they would pay to ship back to you.

 

Dick's is sending me a third one via 2-day shipping at no charge to me.  I just have to return the 2nd one at a physical store (again) today or tomorrow.  

The problem is my head size.  I wear a 6 7/8 so the adult-size of this helmet won't fit me -- my head would be flopping around in there.  I had to order the youth model, which is the same helmet other than size.

As to Force 3, I left them both a voicemail and an email and they haven't bothered returning either.  That was over a week ago, so I doubt I'll ever hear from them.

[umpstu]

16 hours ago, SeeingEyeDog said:

This is an unbelievably sad state of affairs. This is what happens when the world is left with the last few big box stores...and Amazon. My grandparents used to complain about the state of customer service in the 70's...I wonder what they'd say now? When I was a kid umpiring LL, we had a mom and pop sporting goods store in a strip mall a few towns over. It was the only one my parents could find that was willing to order umpire equipment. I remember the patience and pride the salesman took with us reviewing the catalogs and allowing us to order several chest protectors, masks and shin guards so, I could try them all on and get the best fit even though we were only buying one of each. A few months after I got the chest protector, I had a problem with the harness. I took it back to the shop and they ordered a replacement and had it overnighted on their dime. My family in turn made sure we always bought our sporting goods from them for the next 10 years, until my younger brother left for college. A different era, indeed...

@mac266, I would try contacting Force3 at 315 - 367 - 2331 or support@force3progear.com and ask if you can do a swap with them directly. You may have to pay shipping to Milford, CT, but I would think they would pay to ship back to you.

~Dawg

 

I used to work in retail Audio/Video sales and it was extremely frustrating to demo a sound system for a customer, only to have them tell me that they were going to purchase it on Amazon.  Can't count how many times people would call with questions on setting up equipment they bought on line.  Best Buy used to have a commercial making fun of Circuit City Salesmen and their tie and jacket aparell being pushy.  Well, at that time we had a fantastic group of very knowledgeable sales people and BB people didn't know squat about what they were selling.  But with the advent of internet sales, commissioned sales people went bye bye.

[SeeingEyeDog]

@umpstu, Best Buy was where we went for the best prices on albums. Circuit City was where we went when we were finally ready to pull the trigger on the Denon or the Onkyo and needed to know which one was better...AND WHY! And then after the salesman told you, you bought it right then and there so that...you know...the person who actually helped you come to an important decision actually earned on that and provided for their family. Nowadays, it's Crutchfield for me. But, being a lifer audiophile, there's very little I need to buy at this point. My current passion project is running down old Heath Kit sets and putting those together. Not the greatest technology ever but, there is something deeply satisfying about taking a box of parts and getting it to work.

~Dawg

[BT_Blue]

Wow... that seems like a Dicks Sports issue and not one to slam onto Force3. I mean, HELL, it is even missing the velcro strips that would hold the pad in place!

[mac266]

This is the THIRD helmet they shipped me missing the chin pad.  I didn't take pictures of the first one because I figured I would just return it and solve the problem.  #2 is posted above missing the chin pad, and here is #3.  Holy Moses.

Force 3 has ignored two emails and a voicemail.  Dick's, the retailer, keeps trying to solve the problem, but they keep shipping me helmets without the pad.  I've worked in government for 27 years, and I still think you have to TRY HARD to be this incompetent.

I'm done with both.  Force 3 is supposed to be the best thing going for us, but if they don't bother to respond to me, I can't trust them anymore.  Bye bye.

[mac266]

On 6/1/2021 at 7:34 PM, SeeingEyeDog said:

@mac266, I would try contacting Force3 at 315 - 367 - 2331 or support@force3progear.com and ask if you can do a swap with them directly. You may have to pay shipping to Milford, CT, but I would think they would pay to ship back to you.

~Dawg

 

They are completely ignoring me.  No return emails or phone calls.  I'm done with them.

[MadMax]

@mac266 !!! Stop vilifying Force3 for a problem that isn’t theirs!!! 

The problem and blame rest solely with Dick’s Sporting Goods. If you’re pointing out that you’ve now received three DefenderV2 HSMs missing a chin pad, it’s likely that you’ve only received two – the first one just boomeranged on you. Furthermore, you’re receiving DSG stock, not something directly drop-shipped from Force3. At some point, DSG brokered a purchase of DefenderV2s from Force3, and took possession of them to distribute and sell in its stores. It’s entirely plausible that you’re receiving units – lacking chin pieces – because they’re returns, unsold stock, or reclamations from the retail / brick-&-mortar stores. Often on these units, the chin pieces are the first things “to go”, whether they be shoplifted, scuffed, showing signs of wear (and hinder a resale), or nabbed by a DSG employee to hastily “solve a customer service issue”. 

The point is, once DSG take delivery of the supply of units from Force3, Force3 has little control over them, and only limited liability over any use (or misuse) of them. 

After reading all your posts here, I’m left with the question – why did you buy from DSG and not from Ump-Attire, or from Force3 directly? 

At the very least, you need a (replacement) chin piece... why haven’t you checked eBay, the Interwebs, Ump-Attire, or asked with Force3 about a replacement chin piece instead of an outright replacement (whole) unit? I have a hunch that Force3 is ignoring you because it’s not their responsibility – it’s DSG’s. 

[mac266]

8 minutes ago, MadMax said:

@mac266 !!! Stop vilifying Force3 for a problem that isn’t theirs!!! 

The problem and blame rest solely with Dick’s Sporting Goods. If you’re pointing out that you’ve now received three DefenderV2 HSMs missing a chin pad, it’s likely that you’ve only received two – the first one just boomeranged on you. Furthermore, you’re receiving DSG stock, not something directly drop-shipped from Force3. At some point, DSG brokered a purchase of DefenderV2s from Force3, and took possession of them to distribute and sell in its stores. It’s entirely plausible that you’re receiving units – lacking chin pieces – because they’re returns, unsold stock, or reclamations from the retail / brick-&-mortar stores. Often on these units, the chin pieces are the first things “to go”, whether they be shoplifted, scuffed, showing signs of wear (and hinder a resale), or nabbed by a DSG employee to hastily “solve a customer service issue”. 

The point is, once DSG take delivery of the supply of units from Force3, Force3 has little control over them, and only limited liability over any use (or misuse) of them. 

After reading all your posts here, I’m left with the question – why did you buy from DSG and not from Ump-Attire, or from Force3 directly? 

At the very least, you need a (replacement) chin piece... why haven’t you checked eBay, the Interwebs, Ump-Attire, or asked with Force3 about a replacement chin piece instead of an outright replacement (whole) unit? I have a hunch that Force3 is ignoring you because it’s not their responsibility – it’s DSG’s. 

Dick's certainly has some serious issues here, but I did not receive the same helmet twice -- they haven't returned shipped the first two yet.  They are sitting at my local store waiting for me to return the third.  Funny enough, my local store manager called the manager in California, where they found my third helmet, and the guy "personally inspected" the helmet to ensure the chin piece was there.  I would get banned if I said what I think of that guy's intelligence.

Force 3 has been ignoring phone calls and emails.  That's why I'm done with them.  I even sent them the same pictures I've posted here.  Ignoring an ongoing problem from a customer means you don't want the customer's money, now or in the future.  0 for 3 tells me this is a design flaw anyway and my money is better spent elsewhere.  This helmet may have the best shock absorption system out there, but if the helmet can't stay together, it's worthless.   

Ump-attire.com does not carry this helmet.  I actually asked them why, and they provided a generic reason that declined to explain the actual reason.  I suspect they may have carried it at one time and had too many returns to make it economically viable for them -- Ump-attire pays shipping on returns.  

As to why I didn't buy from Force 3 directly, it costs $70 more direct from the manufacturer than it does from DSG.  Price is important.  

Dick's has gone political with their management, and it just so happens that I find myself diametrically opposed to them.  So I have numerous reasons to boycott Dick's -- they are in direct opposition to my belief system, and their ability to provide even the most basic customer service is unachieved.  Bye bye, Dick's.

Force 3 continues to ignore me on email and phone messages.  Bye bye, Force 3.

[mac266]

5 minutes ago, MadMax said:

At the very least, you need a (replacement) chin piece... why haven’t you checked eBay, the Interwebs, Ump-Attire, or asked with Force3 about a replacement chin piece instead of an outright replacement (whole) unit? I have a hunch that Force3 is ignoring you because it’s not their responsibility – it’s DSG’s. 

Why would I buy replacement parts for a brand new item that was supposed to include those same parts in the price?  No.  I paid for a whole helmet.  Provide the whole helmet or give me my money back.

[BT_Blue]

I'm sorry that Force3 seems to be ignoring you. Have you tried calling them directly?

But the crux of the issue STILL lies with Dicks Sporting Goods. And if you have issues with them, just return the whole thing lock-stoc-barrel! I did the same thing with something from Ump-Attire (not Ump-Attire's fault... I just bought it from them) and went and bought a competitor's product. I now will only purchase from that specific line of product if I have no other options.

By your reasoning... I should complain and stay away from UMP-ATTIRE because of one product line I dont agree with.

Other companies still have this helmet if you still want it. Try Gerry Davis, or Hudson51. If you are looking a less expensive route. Try Hibbitts, or Academy Sports, or Big5 even.

If you do get a hold of Force3, don't be surprised if they tell you they can't do anything about it. This would be because of the reasons Max listed. But from everything I have heard. Force3 is a great company and will help.

Resolve the issues with Dicks first. Then reach out to Force3. The problem is with the former... not the latter

[MadMax]

46 minutes ago, mac266 said:

As to why I didn't buy from Force 3 directly, it costs $70 more direct from the manufacturer than it does from DSG.  Price is important.

Exactly why Force3 isn’t replying, and is under no obligation to. With my extensive experience in this industry, I would be surprised if Force3 did reply... because again, they’re under no obligation to. You may have bought a unit with their name on it, but you are not “their customer”, you are DSG’s customer. 

I completely acknowledge and sympathize that you just want your money back. DSG, though, is going to do everything possible to keep that money in their system. Ump-Attire doesn’t carry the DefenderV2 because the run of X units (X = 3,000 units... some ambiguous number) has already been produced, sold, and shipped; there’s no more to be had. DSG likely consolidated their remaining stock of them, and this includes the reclamation units (which is why you’ve gotten 3 that have missing chin pieces). 

Force3 might have a few DefenderV2s left in their own “private” stock, but why would, or should, they exchange one to you when you didn’t buy it from them in the first place? That doesn’t make business sense. Sure, it may seem like “the right thing to do”, but really, the right thing to do was to buy a unit from Force3 to begin with, instead of running the risk which you’re now encountering. 

My words are being said frankly, not harshly. 

If there’s no resolution to be had, here, and DSG wants to hold on to your money so badly, I would suggest considering the new EvoShield HSM. I was going to recommend it when you were courting ideas on a different topic / question earlier. I’ve tried one on (at DSG, ironically). It’s outstanding, as far as HSMs go, since it’s equipped with the brand-new, state-of-the-art WindPact Crash-Cloud pads inside.

[SeeingEyeDog]

I worked retail and wholesale for 18 years...

When you have a product that you are looking to sell to the public, whom you choose as your retail partners is a reflection on you, your company, your brand and your products.

You could have the best product in the world (which in this example, Force3 basically does...) but, if your elite product is being retailed by a company who is unwilling to attend to customer's needs or unable to attend to customer's needs, then your elite product gets tarnished.

If I worked at Dick's and somebody brought this situation to my attention, I would issue a refund or a brand new product...and then get back to making my millions. It's just unbelievable that with all this infrastructure and technology to support our capitalist system, that we're still continuing to hold ourselves back by poor customer service.

~Dawg

[mac266]

Dick's has accepted the third return and given me a full refund after attempting to convince me to try another exchange.  Yes, the bulk of the problem is with Dick's, I fully concede that point.

However, Force 3 has ignored several phone calls and emails, several from before I purchased the helmet (I had questions about sizing and construction).  So they are ignoring me entirely.  So I'll ignore them entirely with my pocketbook.

[mac266]

4 hours ago, MadMax said:

Force3 might have a few DefenderV2s left in their own “private” stock, but why would, or should, they exchange one to you when you didn’t buy it from them in the first place? 

Why on earth would you jump to that conclusion?  I never asked for that, and never said I did.  

[SeeingEyeDog]

@mac266, I wasn't sure if you are still wanting a F3 HSM or not but, the big takeaway for me here (as a prospective customer myself), is for those who do own this mask, clearly having an extra chin cup in your gear bag ready to be deployed is a must. This is clearly a weak link on this mask...and perhaps other HSMs, too but, I am not familiar with those.

~Dawg

[The Man in Blue]

I’m not sure why so many people here are vilifying @mac266 ...

If I bought a product that had the same flaw THREE times, I would suspect the problem was in the manufacturing or quality control  process, not the retailer.  The retailer didn’t make the product.

It is absolutely possible the retailer is reselling returned merch (I have seen that) but again, the same problem THREE times likely indicates a manufacturing issue.

As for buying from Dicks vs. online ... While they aren’t “a local shop”, Dicks provides a “neighborhood” presence that makes some people more comfortable knowing they can “go back into town” to take care of it.  Personally, I don’t and won’t buy from Dicks (terrible selection, terrible prices, terrible service IMO), but I can understand why someone would.

I would also emphasize @SeeingEyeDog’s point above.  Your retail partner IS your face to the customer.

[MadMax]

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

If I bought a product that had the same flaw THREE times, I would suspect the problem was in the manufacturing or quality control  process, not the retailer.  The retailer didn’t make the product.

But it is wholly the retailer in this case. 

On 6/1/2021 at 4:58 PM, mac266 said:

I found one online and had it shipped to my house, only to discover it was sent to me from a returns warehouse in NY, meaning someone had returned it previously.

 

2 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

It is absolutely possible the retailer is reselling returned merch (I have seen that)

Not just possible, that’s exactly what DSG is doing, and only why they are able to sell this HSM at a $70 (less) difference. Almost assuredly, the units left in DSG’s inventory are consolidated from DSG’s nationwide assets, whether they be old stock, returns or reclamations. 

During that consolidation process, there was no (discernible) quality control, considering that Mac has received three defective units. Their defectiveness is solely the responsibility of the retailer, i.e. DSG. At various points, these missing chin pieces were likely shoplifted, fell off, scuffed or worn, or at worst cannibalized to satisfy customer service actions elsewhere in DSG’s network. If a used car dealer pulls the OEM spark plugs out of a Ford Mustang, and then sells you the car, are you going to hold Ford liable? 

4 hours ago, The Man in Blue said:

The retailer didn’t make the product.

The manufacturer didn’t lose the parts. 

I frequently seek out and purchase Milwaukee -brand power tools – and their batteries – via OfferUp, or sometimes via eBay. I never buy these full retail from Home Depot or Lowe’s. Why would I, when I can get a like-new or brand-new power tool for $50-$150 less than retail?! If I buy a “brand new” grinder, and it arrives without the wrenches to change the disc, do I start pressuring Milwaukee Tool to resolve it and supply the missing wrenches?? 

[mac266]

@MadMax, Force 3 has ignored multiple calls and emails from me trying to figure out the problem.  Is this a design flaw?  If so, I'll move on.  They sent me a text message after I called them and declined to leave another voicemail, and the text told me that if I texted them the nature of the problem, someone would get a hold of me.  They didn't.  

Force 3 clearly has a systemic problem with this particular item.  Re-read in my post above about how Ump-Attire doesn't carry it despite carrying other products by that company.  I asked them why, and they declined to give a straight answer, but they did say they have no plans to ever carry it.  That tells me a lot.   Force 3 also doesn't care about a customer issue, so I vote with my checkbook.

Dick's is ate up from the ground up (Army colloquial meaning FUBAR).  The English language doesn't have words to describe how stupid I think they are.

[Aging_Arbiter]

I'm not a paid spokesman here, just playing Devil's advocate.  Is Force3 a small (few employees) company?  Could he/they be at the CWS promoting the product and not actually in the office?

Just a thought.

[BT_Blue]

6 minutes ago, Aging_Arbiter said:

I'm not a paid spokesman here, just playing Devil's advocate.  Is Force3 a small (few employees) company?  Could he/they be at the CWS promoting the product and not actually in the office?

Just a thought.

Omaha is still two weekends away. But it is entirely possible they are hopping site to site. Almost guarantee they will be at CWS though.

[kylejt]

I've had a pretty good response from Jason at F3, regarding replacing the backplate on mine. 

<support@force3progear.com>

Yours pictured doesn't have the needed velcro strips in either side to attach the pad, even if they let you buy one. 

I did have a several day gap in communication, but Jason actually reached out to me last night, so don't give up. You many want to relate to him that Dick's is selling returned gear, which needs to either be specified or stopped. 

 

(if it were me, I'd return the rig to Dick's, get a refund, and be done with it). 

[kylejt]

My last email from Jason at F3 was on Sunday. So they're around. 

I'm not sure what they could do for you, though. Dick's is a re-seller, and sold you defective safety equipment, on multiple occasions. That ain't right. Unknowing buyers might not even know a chin pad is needed, and get someone hurt. But you're just dealing with customer service reps at Dick's, and doubt you'll get any sort of satisfaction. 

But did the units that you got seem to fit you okay? (yeah, hard to tell without the chin pad). I just bought a first generation, and the inside shape of the thing doesn't mate up with my noggin whatsoever. 

[mac266]

7 hours ago, kylejt said:

My last email from Jason at F3 was on Sunday. So they're around. 

I'm not sure what they could do for you, though. Dick's is a re-seller, and sold you defective safety equipment, on multiple occasions. That ain't right. Unknowing buyers might not even know a chin pad is needed, and get someone hurt. But you're just dealing with customer service reps at Dick's, and doubt you'll get any sort of satisfaction. 

But did the units that you got seem to fit you okay? (yeah, hard to tell without the chin pad). I just bought a first generation, and the inside shape of the thing doesn't mate up with my noggin whatsoever. 

1- Still no response from Force 3.

2- It did seem to fit.  Keep in mind I wear a 6 7/8 hat normally (except for Richardson's umpire hats, which fit small, so I buy a 7).  That is very small, and too small for the Defender helmet.  There is a youth version of the Defender helmet, which is the one I ordered, solely due to size.  My head is right in the middle of the youth version sizing.