OBS at home plate

[BDad]

Situation: LL Majors game, R2, R3, 1 out. PB goes to the backstop, F1 rushes to cover home plate as R3 tries to score. F1 straddles the plate waiting to receive the ball from F2 with his foot squarely in front of the 3B side of the plate (in the path of the runner). R3 slides into F1's foot just before (in my view) F1 has possession of the ball. F1 receives the ball and applies the tag. R3 clearly (again, in my view) would have been safe except for sliding into F1's foot. I identified obstruction and awarded R3 to home, run scores.

The play happened fast, but it seemed like textbook obstruction to me at the time. LL Rule 2.00 NOTE: "Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line, or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball." Then I found a thread in one of the forums here last night discussing how it might not be obstruction depending on how much of the base is blocked (that situation was R1 diving back on a pick off play). I.e., if the runner has a path to the base, say with the fielder's foot in front of part the base, then it might just be bad base running rather than obstruction. In my situation, technically the runner could have slid to the foul territory side of home plate, gone over or around the fielder's toes instead of into his ankle, and touched the plate. So, bad base running? Is it a reasonable expectation for 10-12 y.o.'s to be situationally aware enough to alter their slide? Or maybe just a train wreck on a close play like this when the fielder is in the act of receiving the ball (I believe LL rules do not recognize imminent possession as possession)?

[stevis]

Correct--no "receiving the throw" protection in LL.  Sounds like a great call to me.

[Tborze]

25 minutes ago, BDad said:

Situation: LL Majors game, R2, R3, 1 out. PB goes to the backstop, F1 rushes to cover home plate as R3 tries to score. F1 straddles the plate waiting to receive the ball from F2 with his foot squarely in front of the 3B side of the plate (in the path of the runner). R3 slides into F1's foot just before (in my view) F1 has possession of the ball. F1 receives the ball and applies the tag. R3 clearly (again, in my view) would have been safe except for sliding into F1's foot. I identified obstruction and awarded R3 to home, run scores.

The play happened fast, but it seemed like textbook obstruction to me at the time. LL Rule 2.00 NOTE: "Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line, or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball." Then I found a thread in one of the forums here last night discussing how it might not be obstruction depending on how much of the base is blocked (that situation was R1 diving back on a pick off play). I.e., if the runner has a path to the base, say with the fielder's foot in front of part the base, then it might just be bad base running rather than obstruction. In my situation, technically the runner could have slid to the foul territory side of home plate, gone over or around the fielder's toes instead of into his ankle, and touched the plate. So, bad base running? Is it a reasonable expectation for 10-12 y.o.'s to be situationally aware enough to alter their slide? Or maybe just a train wreck on a close play like this when the fielder is in the act of receiving the ball (I believe LL rules do not recognize imminent possession as possession)?

Are you saying R3 had “access” to the plate but chose not to use it?

[maven]

33 minutes ago, Tborze said:

Are you saying R3 had “access” to the plate but chose not to use it?

He's saying what he said: "with his foot squarely in front of the 3B side of the plate (in the path of the runner)."

I like OBS there: yes, the runner had a couple inches of base to get to on either side of the foot, perhaps. That's not access, IMO, and I'm not limiting my OBS calls to a fielder lying down in front of HP or making the ruling contingent on shoe size. ("Hold on: fielder, what size shoe is that? I need to compare it to the plate to determine whether the runner had 'access'....")

Now if the fielder is properly set up in front of HP and his heel is blocking the front corner, I'm letting that go.

[Tborze]

9 minutes ago, maven said:

He's saying what he said: "with his foot squarely in front of the 3B side of the plate (in the path of the runner)."

 

He also said: “In my situation, technically the runner could have slid to the foul territory side of home plate,gone over or around the fielder's toes insteadof into his ankle, and touched the plate.”.

Catchers are taught to have their foot on the line facing the runner,  so width is important here, not the length 

 

[ArchAngel72]

If the runner slides it is OBS based on him blocking the plate with out access to it based on how I read

Quote

"F1 straddles the plate waiting to receive the ball from F2 with his foot squarely in front of the 3B side of the plate (in the path of the runner)."

 

However I had this happen last night.

Runner from third came in hot and plowed into the pitcher. 

 

Rule is in LL must slide or avoid contact.  HE did not slide and he did NOT avoid contact so I called him out.   I explained to the coaches who asked about the OBS I said he did not slide, had he slid I would have called him safe and or OBS but he would have been safe as the catcher came up and tagged him late.

My call was the running into the player on purpose he actually had room to go around as the pitcher was blocking only 1/3rd of the plate and allowing the runner access to it.

 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2019 Little League Rules Instruction Manual (Rule 2.00—Definition of Terms)—and following are comments from Little League umpire instructors, i.e., what’s being taught to LL umpires.

OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball, impedes the progress of any runner…

INSTRUCTOR’S COMMENTS:

➔ It is quite simple now for the umpires to rule on obstruction…if the defense does not have the ball and impedes the progress of any runner it shall be called obstruction. It makes no difference if the defense is fielding a thrown ball or waiting for the ball, if the defensive player does not have the ball in his/her possession it is obstruction if they impede the progress of any runner.

➔ Runners are entitled to the entire base/plate without having to alter their path or slide to achieve the base or plate. If a fielder blocks ANY PART of the base or plate without possession of the ball and the runner is hindered, forced to slide or alter his/her path because of the fielder’s position, the runner has been obstructed.

 ➔ Most actions related to obstruction concern who has the right-of-way. The defense has the right to the baseline on a batted ball or when he/she already has the ball in his/her possession. The offense has the right to the baseline in all other occasions, including on a thrown ball.

[JonnyCat]

14 minutes ago, ArchAngel72 said:

However I had this happen last night.

Runner from third came in hot and plowed into the pitcher. 

 

Rule is in LL must slide or avoid contact.  HE did not slide and he did NOT avoid contact so I called him out.   I explained to the coaches who asked about the OBS I said he did not slide, had he slid I would have called him safe and or OBS but he would have been safe as the catcher came up and tagged him late.

My call was the running into the player on purpose he actually had room to go around as the pitcher was blocking only 1/3rd of the plate and allowing the runner access to it.

If you think the contact was purposeful or UC, then you might have grounds for an ejection. However, Rule 7.08(a)(3), does not say "must slide or avoid contact."

The rule states; "Any runner is out when- "the runner does not slide or attempt to get around a fielder who has the ball and is waiting to make a tag."

There can be contact with no violation. There is no must slide rule, either. See 7.08 AR on page 141 of the 2021 LL rulebook. 

The rule says if he doesn't slide or attempt to get around, then the runner is out. It doesn't say he must slide or avoid contact. A runner is not automatically out by virtue of not sliding or failure to avoid contact. All elements of 7.08 must be met in order to call a runner out. It's entirely possible that the runner could have been safe and there was UC. In that case, the run scores, and the runner is subject to ejection. If the pitcher had the ball and was waiting to make a tag, then the runner could have been called out and subject to ejection. If the pitcher did not have the ball, then in your case, you might have a run score and an ejection.

[JonnyCat]

Senor Azul. I think that's twice this week you beat me to the punch by a couple of minutes! I guess I need to type faster! Or get up earlier! 

[ArchAngel72]

Well I kicked it. I forgot the have the ball part. 

 

Yup  I should have OBS on F1

'damn it

 

[ArchAngel72]

but in the end I probably should have ejected too for not avoiding the player. I mean it was like he just was not there and was running thru him.

/sigh

 

[Rich Ives]

2 hours ago, BDad said:

Situation: LL Majors game, R2, R3, 1 out. PB goes to the backstop, F1 rushes to cover home plate as R3 tries to score. F1 straddles the plate waiting to receive the ball from F2 with his foot squarely in front of the 3B side of the plate (in the path of the runner). R3 slides into F1's foot just before (in my view) F1 has possession of the ball. F1 receives the ball and applies the tag. R3 clearly (again, in my view) would have been safe except for sliding into F1's foot. I identified obstruction and awarded R3 to home, run scores.

The play happened fast, but it seemed like textbook obstruction to me at the time. LL Rule 2.00 NOTE: "Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line, or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball." Then I found a thread in one of the forums here last night discussing how it might not be obstruction depending on how much of the base is blocked (that situation was R1 diving back on a pick off play). I.e., if the runner has a path to the base, say with the fielder's foot in front of part the base, then it might just be bad base running rather than obstruction. In my situation, technically the runner could have slid to the foul territory side of home plate, gone over or around the fielder's toes instead of into his ankle, and touched the plate. So, bad base running? Is it a reasonable expectation for 10-12 y.o.'s to be situationally aware enough to alter their slide? Or maybe just a train wreck on a close play like this when the fielder is in the act of receiving the ball (I believe LL rules do not recognize imminent possession as possession)?

LL doesn't have the access provision.  That's only a high school thing. You made the right call.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, maven said:

He's saying what he said: "with his foot squarely in front of the 3B side of the plate (in the path of the runner)."

I like OBS there: yes, the runner had a couple inches of base to get to on either side of the foot, perhaps. That's not access, IMO, and I'm not limiting my OBS calls to a fielder lying down in front of HP or making the ruling contingent on shoe size. ("Hold on: fielder, what size shoe is that? I need to compare it to the plate to determine whether the runner had 'access'....")

Now if the fielder is properly set up in front of HP and his heel is blocking the front corner, I'm letting that go.

LL doesn't have an access provision. 

 

[BDad]

1 hour ago, Senor Azul said:

From the 2019 Little League Rules Instruction Manual (Rule 2.00—Definition of Terms)—and following are comments from Little League umpire instructors, i.e., what’s being taught to LL umpires.

...

➔ Runners are entitled to the entire base/plate without having to alter their path or slide to achieve the base or plate. If a fielder blocks ANY PART of the base or plate without possession of the ball and the runner is hindered, forced to slide or alter his/her path because of the fielder’s position, the runner has been obstructed.

 ...

Thanks Senor Azul! I had forgotten about this comment in the RIM. So in this situation, most/all of home plate was blocked by F1's foot, so the runner was hindered. It comes down to a judgment of whether F1 had possession or not.

Another question occurred to me as I was reading replies. On a close play like this, at what point does it become obstruction? At contact? But contact isn't required for obstruction. When the runner is committed to the slide path? In this play, the runner slid straight into the pitcher's ankle. I suppose a more experienced 12 y.o. could've rolled to the other hip and bent a leg around the pitcher's foot (as I mentioned in the OP), but one might interpret that as forcing him to alter his path, so still obstruction if no possession. What if the runner starts the slide, F1 gets possession, then the runner alters the slide. No obstruction?

I feel good about the call, just trying to think through scenarios for when it happens again. (Lots of PBs in LL, but could be any tag play at other bases too.)

[johnnyg08]

On 5/28/2021 at 8:57 AM, Tborze said:

width is important here, not the length 

 

That's what they all say