stepping forward off rubber ?

[Guest NJ Coach]

I believe I've seen pick-off training videos showing it's allowable to step forward off the rubber from the set position to throw to a base, but the various sources of rules I see on-line suggest it's only OK to step back off the rubber on a pickoff throw.  Which is it ?

I know it's not required to step off at all, so why would stepping forward be illegal ?

[agdz59]

Because stepping forward would be deceiving the runner that a pitch was being delivered.  Can't do that.  The pitcher has to step toward the base they are throwing to if they are still engaged with the pitchers plate. If they step back off the plate first, they can do whatever they want.

[SH0102]

30 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

I believe I've seen pick-off training videos showing it's allowable to step forward off the rubber from the set position to throw to a base, but the various sources of rules I see on-line suggest it's only OK to step back off the rubber on a pickoff throw.  Which is it ?

I know it's not required to step off at all, so why would stepping forward be illegal ?

GuestNJCoach....are you implying that the pivot foot (foot on the rubber) is the one going forward or the stride foot?  If the former, you can not legally take a step forward with that foot, period.  If you are doing a spin move, the pivot foot can land in front of the plate but that is not a "step"...if it is the latter, then that simulates a pitch and by definition, is a balk if they do not deliver said pitch.

[aaluck]

"A step forward" is not clear enough to answer the question. The pitcher must step 'toward' the bag to which he is throwing. Now you will start a whole new discussion as to what THAT means.

Now if your talking about the pivot foot as stated by @SH0102that is not allowed.

[beerguy55]

9 minutes ago, aaluck said:

"A step forward" is not clear enough to answer the question. The pitcher must step 'toward' the bag to which he is throwing. Now you will start a whole new discussion as to what THAT means.

Now if your talking about the pivot foot as stated by @SH0102that is not allowed.

 

48 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Because stepping forward would be deceiving the runner that a pitch was being delivered.  Can't do that.  The pitcher has to step toward the base they are throwing to if they are still engaged with the pitchers plate. If they step back off the plate first, they can do whatever they want.

 He's not talking about the front foot...he's talking about the back foot...assuming with R1 he's in the stretch.  The pitcher can disengage from the rubber by moving his back foot behind the rubber...he can't disengage by moving it, for example, six inches forward.

it's illegal...but it's certainly not deceptive...no one in their right might would think he's pitching if he moves his back foot forward.

 

Not sure of the reasoning behind it, but that doesn't matter...it's illegal because the book says so.

[agdz59]

22 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

 

 He's not talking about the front foot...he's talking about the back foot...assuming with R1 he's in the stretch.  The pitcher can disengage from the rubber by moving his back foot behind the rubber...he can't disengage by moving it, for example, six inches forward.

it's illegal...but it's certainly not deceptive...no one in their right might would think he's pitching if he moves his back foot forward.

 

Not sure of the reasoning behind it, but that doesn't matter...it's illegal because the book says so.

Well, yeah - I don't know how you even DO that so I didn't consider it. And, as everyone has said, the only legal move with the pivot foot once the pitcher is set is backward off the rubber.

[beerguy55]

4 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Well, yeah - I don't know how you even DO that so I didn't consider it

Um...really?   Stand up with your feet 18 inches apart.  Move your right foot six inches towards your left foot...magic...you just moved your back foot off the rubber, forwards.  

[noumpere]

23 minutes ago, agdz59 said:

Well, yeah - I don't know how you even DO that so I didn't consider it. And, as everyone has said, the only legal move with the pivot foot once the pitcher is set is backward off the rubber.

THat's not quite true.  A jab step and a jump spin involve moving the pivot foot, and those are legal moves.

 

imo, the OP needs to be more specific about pivot foot or non-pivot foot and whether "foreward" means toward the plate or toward third (for a RH pitcher)

[agdz59]

37 minutes ago, beerguy55 said:

Um...really?   Stand up with your feet 18 inches apart.  Move your right foot six inches towards your left foot...magic...you just moved your back foot off the rubber, forwards.  

Most of the pitchers I see have their feet close together and that's what's in my head.  You are, of course, correct. Still illegal.

[Guest NJ Coach]

Yes, I'm referring to the foot on the rubber (back foot).   Perhaps the pickoff videos I recall seeing are 'jab step' movements.  In the case of an RHP, would that be a quick step forward and toward third with the back foot ?

I guess it's a judgment how far toward 3b and how far forward is OK ?

[aaluck]

8 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

In the case of an RHP, would that be a quick step forward and toward third with the back foot ?

 

Please post a link to these videos. I want to see what you are describing. 

[Guest NJ Coach]

 

See the explanation in the beginning....they show moving the back foot forward for a throw to first is OK.

 

What constitues a balk? - YouTube

[LMSANS]

He steps behind the plane of the rubber. NFHS rule 6-1-3 says "...he may lift his pivot foot in a step backward off the pitcher's plate which must be in or partially within the 24 inch length of the pitcher's plate..."

He is partially within the length of the pitcher's plate.

[noumpere]

Wait -- the announcers got it wrong!?  First time ever.

[Guest NJ Coach]

No I am referring to Ryan Dempster's demo of a legal pickoff throw to first at about 50 seconds into the vide.  He was an MLB pitcher.  He makes the distinction that if you step back you can fake a throw or do anything....but you can step forward if you make the throw to first.

[noumpere]

16 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

No I am referring to Ryan Dempster's demo of a legal pickoff throw to first at about 50 seconds into the vide.  He was an MLB pitcher.  He makes the distinction that if you step back you can fake a throw or do anything....but you can step forward if you make the throw to first.

I don't hear him say that.  What he is demonstrating in the throw to first is a jab step / pivot -- ot's a move from the runner

[maven]

1 hour ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

but you can step forward if you make the throw to first

The reason we don't say that is that the rule requires the free ("front") foot to step "directly" toward the base—in this case 1B—ahead of the throw. 

By interpretation, this step must gain "distance and direction": it must leave the original footprint (distance), and move more toward 1B (or whichever) than toward HP or any other base (direction).

Because direction toward 1B is required, to call this a "step forward" is misleading, at least if "forward" is toward HP (as disengaging is "backward").

The jump turn/jab step move in the video counts as stepping toward the base, and that's why it's a "move from the rubber" even though the pivot ("back") foot also moves. Because the rules do not specify or restrict the movement of the pivot foot, that foot moving "forward" or toward HP is legal.

[Guest NJ Coach]

Maven...I’ve been referring to the back foot (stepping forward), not the direction of the movement of the front foot.

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Maven...I’ve been referring to the back foot (stepping forward), not the direction of the movement of the front foot.

I'm not really sure what you're getting at, what you're not understanding, or what point you're trying to make.

If you want to "step off", or disengage, you need to move your back foot to behind the rubber...at that point the pitcher becomes a fielder, and can do what they want....throw, not throw, throw to another base, do jumping jacks, etc.

Moving the back foot forward, as you describe it, is allowed only as part of a pick off...and as such, you're required to continue, and throw to first base.  Stopping would result in a balk.  To describe it as "stepping forward" is a distortion of the truth.  The pitcher is moving the foot in a manner that physically enables him to turn and throw to first, without simply rotating on his heel.  When the back foot moves "forward" it must be paired with the front foot moving towards a base.

[maven]

1 hour ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Maven...I’ve been referring to the back foot (stepping forward), not the direction of the movement of the front foot.

With F1 engaged, the pivot foot moving forward without a step of the free foot toward the base is a balk ("no step").

If the free foot moves in a step also, then it's legal (because we don't care about the pivot).

[Senor Azul]

From the 2018 Minor League Baseball Umpire Manual (p. 102):

It is legal for a right-handed pitcher to begin a pickoff move to first base by first moving his pivot foot in the direction of third base provided that he makes a legal step toward first base with his non-pivot foot before throwing there and provided that the move is continuous and without interruption. A pitcher who makes such a pickoff move is considered to be in contact with the rubber when he makes his throw to first base.

[Guest NJ Coach]

Ok the last few responses clear things up for me.  The pivot foot can come forward off the rubber if part of a continuous move/throw with the front foot moving toward first, as Dempster does in the video.