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fishnfed

coach enters field of play prior to being awarded time

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Fed rule set

F1 walks a batter and the coach makes his way out to the mound.  BR is not yet to 1st base, U1 has not awarded time but the coach keeps coming onto the field.  BR hits first base and takes off to second.  As the coach is two or three steps onto the field, F1 wheels around and throws out the BR prior to him reaching 2nd.  Any ruling??

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No ruling.  A conversation with the coach, but no ruling.  The batter runner was smart enough to know the ball was still live.  Unfortunately so were the defensive players.  I guess everybody is smarter than the coach.

Personally, I try to be pre-emptive by putting up the stop sign or a “one finger hold” when I see the coach coming out.

EDIT: Well, yeah @JSam21‘s out.  :notworthy:

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10 hours ago, fishnfed said:

Fed rule set

F1 walks a batter and the coach makes his way out to the mound.  BR is not yet to 1st base, U1 has not awarded time but the coach keeps coming onto the field.  BR hits first base and takes off to second.  As the coach is two or three steps onto the field, F1 wheels around and throws out the BR prior to him reaching 2nd.  Any ruling??

If you think BR's action is reasonably possible (and always at lower levels), then be proactive and stop the coach from coming out.

If you think BR's action is not going to happen (higher levels -- but you need to read the situation) then grant time as the coach is coming out.

In your specific play where neither happened, then the out stands.

And, it applies to all rules sets.

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Mr. noumpere, I would like to know how you are able to state categorically that the out stands and that all codes rule the same on this play. Seriously, you may be right but you did not provide one shred of supporting evidence. I can find a little written about base coaches who get involved with play but I cannot find anything written about the defensive coach being on the field of play without permission. I found the following case play about an offensive coach ignoring the umpire’s instruction that could conceivably be applied to the OP.

2012 Baseball Rules Interpretations SITUATION 19: Having already had an offensive conference, the head coach asks for time to talk with the new batter. U1 informs the coach that he is allowed only one charged conference per inning while on offense. The head coach ignores U1 and attempts to talk with the batter. RULING: U1 should do his best to professionally prevent the offensive conference from taking place. If the conference is taking place before the plate umpire realizes the infraction, he should stop the conference and warn the coach. If the head coach ignores the umpire and holds his conference to completion, he shall be restricted to the bench. Depending upon his subsequent behavior, the coach may be subject to ejection. Upon being notified by the plate umpire that the conference is not allowed, the head coach should stop his conference and he and his player return to their positions. (3-4-2, 10-1-1)

And if you applied the OBR definition of when a conference begins as when the coach crosses the foul line, then you could conceivably call time when the coach crossed the foul line in the OP. That would at least provide some poetic justice as the defensive coach’s action would cost his team an out.

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I understand that allowing the walked runner to touch first and ensuring that no other advance occurs by he or other runners is the time to award time.  Several coaches will just walk onto the field without being awarded time.

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12 hours ago, noumpere said:

Time wasn't called and the coach didn't interfere with the play.

I’m onboard with you, @noumpere. There are plenty of times when participants other than the 9 fielders, the Batter and 3 or less Runners are out of the dugout (but not on the field ie. over the foul lines) that we’re not calling Time on. Do we call Time when the On Deck Batter walks / jogs / runs (as little kids do) in to take their place at bat, even while the BR has not reached 1B yet? Do we call time when a batboy comes out promptly upon Ball 4 to retrieve the bat (and the protective gear some teenage/upper level batters eschew)? Do we call Time when a participant or batboy brings us new / more baseballs after Ball 4? How about when a coach comes out to retrieve the bat because the On Deck Batter can’t be bothered to, do we call Time then?

No. Do we have to call Time as soon a/the coach steps out of the dugout? No. If the middle infielders were to start heading towards the mound, without Time called, wouldn’t a BR be tempted and/or try to take advantage and keep right on going from 1B to 2B? That’s what those offenses are counting on – a pitcher pouting, or the middle infielders napping, or forcing a throw from an erratic catcher. This doesn’t happen in the upper levels of baseball, and only rarely happens in high school baseball. It’s at the wee youth levels where this happens (think: 70 ft base paths or less), and if a offensive team gets caught while trying to exploit this, then by all means, this is an Out, 

Consider the converse – you call Time as soon as the defensive coach steps out the dugout, and the offensive team is trying this shenanigan (my opinion of it)? You’ll catch nothing but grief.

 

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17 hours ago, fishnfed said:

I understand that allowing the walked runner to touch first and ensuring that no other advance occurs by he or other runners is the time to award time.  Several coaches will just walk onto the field without being awarded time.

What level is this?  You probably need to address that behavior by the coaches (and just granting them time is NOT how to do so).

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11 hours ago, noumpere said:

What level is this?  You probably need to address that behavior by the coaches (and just granting them time is NOT how to do so).

I mean... working college baseball, coaches aren’t remaining in their dugout until I call time... we all know what’s going on. 

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11 hours ago, JSam21 said:

working college baseball, coaches aren’t remaining in their dugout until I call time

So too, BR’s aren’t being urged by a 1BC to “keep right on running” on a Walk and “go for 2!”.

Kiddie ball shenanigan.

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12 hours ago, JSam21 said:

I mean... working college baseball, coaches aren’t remaining in their dugout until I call time... we all know what’s going on. 

There is another important takeaway from this thread ...

Just as it was suggested to include the code when having discussions due to the differences in rule sets, it would be valuable for us to include the age/level of the game as well.  Most veterans already understand the concept of adjusting your game to the level you are working, but plenty of new umpires are coming here to learn.  It helps when we are as specific as possible in our answers so somebody doesn’t just latch onto something.

Just as you wouldn’t shut down a college coach coming out of the dugout, there is absolutely no way I am letting a youth coach do this.  It isn’t just about the age/level of the game, it is about the “professional” level of the coach.

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13 hours ago, JSam21 said:

I mean... working college baseball, coaches aren’t remaining in their dugout until I call time... we all know what’s going on. 

Right -- that (generally) fits in the "higher level" I mentioned above.  My guess (and it's only a guess, that's why I asked the OP) is that the OP happened at a level much lower than college.

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This occurred at a "higher level" varisty high school game; ie, both coaches should know better.

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On 9/16/2019 at 3:53 PM, fishnfed said:

This occurred at a "higher level" varisty high school game;

... which means that the kiddie ball shenanigan of running a Walk to 2B won’t happen either. Or, they won’t try that again! 

Sooooooo... you’re good! No worries!

Addendum: Oh! I just saw this in the Reds vs. Cubs game. No one on, 1 out, Ball 4 skips in the dirt. Batter (Kemp) drops the bat and starts to go to 1B. Catcher (Barnhart) immediately presents the ball to PU (Laz Diaz), who calls Time, and exchanges the ball. Kemp wasn’t even at the 45’ yet!

What gives??!! How dare he!!! How dare he call Time and stifle and prevent an offensive opportunity!!!

Oh, and what did Barnhardt do? Jog out to have a (charged) talk with his pitcher!

Kiddie Ball Shenanigans. Know your context.

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On ‎9‎/‎16‎/‎2019 at 3:53 PM, fishnfed said:

This occurred at a "higher level" varisty high school game; ie, both coaches should know better.

When you see the coach coming out... Just call time. It is that simple. 

 

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I have had the proverbial zombie coach that seems to "forget" to ask for time.
I say (with a commanding voice) "do not approach the field coach" and they freeze in their tracks.

In your situation, the runner did not give a hoot about anything but getting to second base. The play is not resolved until the batter-runner pauses at first base with no intent to "continue". Until then, the granting of time is not even considered by myself.

The coach would have only interfered with his pitcher, right?

You did not say that he did any of that.

The runner is out, good try...maybe next time.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

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On 9/19/2019 at 4:01 PM, JSam21 said:

When you see the coach coming out... Just call time. It is that simple. 

 

No, it's not that simple.

 

You call time out when it is appropriate for the level that is being worked.  However, most coaches, HS and College, will request time. I think I'd  lean more toward waiting until they say something or give you some type of hand jester or something.

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