Ball dead between innings

[Guest BlueBayou]

What rule/interp says that the ball is dead in between innings (needs to be re-made live by PU at start of next half inning) ? 

[MadMax]

I’m sure @Senor Azul (or another) will answer this soon. In the meantime, let’s look at plain ol’ common sense.

Why wouldn’t the ball be dead during the interval between half-innings?

Why don’t warm up pitches count as balls & Strikes, or against the pitcher’s pitch count? How is it that a warm up pitch can elude the catcher, and be replaced with another baseball, but neither umpire signals Time, or puts the ball back in play? How is it the defensive team can have more than 9 players on the field without penalty?

Those are just a few...

[noumpere]

1 hour ago, Guest BlueBayou said:

What rule/interp says that the ball is dead in between innings (needs to be re-made live by PU at start of next half inning) ? 

None.  But:

 

In theory, theory and reality are the same thing.  In reality, they are different.

 

IOW, the ball might not be dead, but (for most purposes) it's treated as if it is.

 

 

[Dotteump]

[Rich Ives]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

Why don’t warm up pitches count as balls & Strikes, or against the pitcher’s pitch count?

Because a pitch is something delivered to the batter and there's no batter in the box.

[Rich Ives]

So an inning is over when there are three outs.

So if the ball is then dead how do you do an appeal for an advantageous 4th out? 

[Jimurray]

1 hour ago, Rich Ives said:

So an inning is over when there are three outs.

So if the ball is then dead how do you do an appeal for an advantageous 4th out? 

Three outs does not make the ball dead. CCS rationalizes for you: https://www.closecallsports.com/search?q=fourth+out

No matter when the ball becomes dead between innings NCAA now wants it put into play to start an inning. But that is primarily to start the pitching clock.

[Senor Azul]

The bolded parenthetical is new for this current rule book--

2019-2020 NCAA Appendix F

20-Second Pitch Clock Limit

1. The 20-second time limit (or clock) starts when the pitcher receives the ball on the mound and stops when the pitcher begins his pitching motion. (For the first pitch each half-inning, the 20-second clock begins when the umpire puts the ball into play.) The time limit (or clock) is used only when the bases are unoccupied. If a pitcher violates the 20-second rule he shall be warned by the umpire. After a pitcher is warned, if he continues to violate the rule, a ball will be awarded for each violation. There is one warning per pitcher.

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Three outs does not make the ball dead. CCS rationalizes for you: https://www.closecallsports.com/search?q=fourth+out

No matter when the ball becomes dead between innings NCAA now wants it put into play to start an inning. But that is primarily to start the pitching clock.

What does make it dead - if anything?

[noumpere]

3 hours ago, Rich Ives said:

What does make it dead - if anything?

I would say when the opportunity for an appeal is lost.

[Senor Azul]

If you were to read Gil Imber’s article that Mr. Jimurray provided a link to you would read the following as part of his conclusions (I urge you to read the whole article—it is very well written and makes great baseball sense).

Thus, time is not out simply because the third out has occurred. In this case, time is only out when the defense has left the field, thrown the ball out of play, etc. And we know this because the ball is always live when an appeal is made and if the ball is always live during an appeal, and an appeal can occur after the third out of the inning, then, transitively speaking, the ball must be live during an appeal effected after the third out of the inning.

Since the defense leaving the field, the ball being taken out of play, etc. is what usually happens after the third out, it's not too far of a leap to lump in "third out" and "dead ball" together, but, as Rule 5.09(c)'s fourth out illustrates, the ball remains live in the immediate aftermath of the third out. It becomes dead as the result of an action that could potentially occur simultaneously with the third out being recorded, but the act that causes the ball to become dead is not the third out itself.

[beerguy55]

On 5/11/2019 at 5:29 AM, MadMax said:

I’m sure @Senor Azul (or another) will answer this soon. In the meantime, let’s look at plain ol’ common sense.

Why wouldn’t the ball be dead during the interval between half-innings?

Why don’t warm up pitches count as balls & Strikes, or against the pitcher’s pitch count? How is it that a warm up pitch can elude the catcher, and be replaced with another baseball, but neither umpire signals Time, or puts the ball back in play? How is it the defensive team can have more than 9 players on the field without penalty?

Those are just a few...

 

On 5/11/2019 at 5:01 AM, Guest BlueBayou said:

What rule/interp says that the ball is dead in between innings (needs to be re-made live by PU at start of next half inning) ? 

 

meh - it wouldn't be dead because it doesn't have to be...whether it's dead or live is irrelevant.

A pitch requires a batter, catcher and umpire to be ready - since only one of those three conditions are met in warm ups, they aren't "pitches".  

Since there's no play, no pitch, no imminent pitch, no batter, no runner, and the ump isn't ready, doesn't matter how many defenders are on the field, whether the ball is dead or live.

As stated, NCAA implies it is dead because it requires it made live to start the pitch clock - but without that arbitrary starting point it wouldn't matter.  The umpire could easily just be instructed to point and say "play" to start the clock, without really referencing that he is now making the play live.

Even the rule that draws the line for appeals at when the infielders leave fair territory doesn't mean the ball has to be "dead".  They're not allowed to appeal because they left the field, not because the ball is dead.

For all intents and purposes the ball is treated as dead by the time the new defense takes the field, but it doesn't really matter.   It would only ever matter if they decided to put the game on a "time played" clock, where the clock stopped between half innings.