How late can a batter swing at an uncaught third strike

[beerguy55]

It's one thing to swing, with two strikes, at an extremely wild pitch knowing the catcher will likely miss it...but how about waiting until after the catcher misses it before you swing the bat?

When is a pitch no longer a pitch you can swing at?

[noumpere]

Umpire judgment, but it has to be an "attempt to hit the ball" or some such wording.

 

Benefit of the doubt to the batter if the ball hasn't reached the catcher.  Benefit of the doubt to the defense if it has.

[Guest Nick]

Truth be told chances are batter is not going to attempt this type of shenanigan until he realizes F2 is not or leisurely pursuing the bal. If after the tardy swing, the batter attempted to run to 1b and failed to return to the box in 20 seconds, would anyone consider calling strike 3 for delay of game?

[noumpere]

15 minutes ago, Guest Nick said:

Truth be told chances are batter is not going to attempt this type of shenanigan until he realizes F2 is not or leisurely pursuing the bal. If after the tardy swing, the batter attempted to run to 1b and failed to return to the box in 20 seconds, would anyone consider calling strike 3 for delay of game?

I'd be too busy laughing.

 

Seriously - enforcing this rule in this situation would send the game right down the crapper (unless there was some other reason you needed to stick it to the team / player)

[MadMax]

In light of @noumpere saying it is "umpire judgement", consider this – when does a pitch "end"? As a pitch is made and incoming, it may never bounce, or it may bounce once, twice, twenty times, and if it makes contact with the batter, we rule it as "Hit By Pitch", right? Conversely, pitch comes in, ricochets off the catcher or umpire, then makes contact with the batter... and it's nothing. So the pitched ball must have ceased to be a "pitch" at some point, yes?

So, perhaps a benchmark for determining the "end" or "terminus" for a pitch, in regards to the batter and any swing attempts he may make, is the catcher's position. Of course, we still consider a Wild Pitch or Pass Ball as a pitch until the catcher secures it – we have to for determining its status if it goes out of play (into the dugout, under the backstop, etc.). But in respect to the batter, if that pitch passes by or makes contact with the catcher's position, any subsequent swing attempt is not valid. 

[Jimurray]

3 hours ago, MadMax said:

In light of @noumpere saying it is "umpire judgement", consider this – when does a pitch "end"? As a pitch is made and incoming, it may never bounce, or it may bounce once, twice, twenty times, and if it makes contact with the batter, we rule it as "Hit By Pitch", right? Conversely, pitch comes in, ricochets off the catcher or umpire, then makes contact with the batter... and it's nothing. So the pitched ball must have ceased to be a "pitch" at some point, yes?

So, perhaps a benchmark for determining the "end" or "terminus" for a pitch, in regards to the batter and any swing attempts he may make, is the catcher's position. Of course, we still consider a Wild Pitch or Pass Ball as a pitch until the catcher secures it – we have to for determining its status if it goes out of play (into the dugout, under the backstop, etc.). But in respect to the batter, if that pitch passes by or makes contact with the catcher's position, any subsequent swing attempt is not valid. 

FED has a semantic problem with the bolded. I, however don't. But @lawump might want it addressed for some literal rule reader. 

[Rich Ives]

4 hours ago, MadMax said:

 Of course, we still consider a Wild Pitch or Passed Ball as a pitch until the catcher secures it 

Nah -  it transitions to being a pitched ball, but not a pitch. Note the wording in the rule:

One base, if a ball, pitched to the batter, or thrown by the pitcher from his position
on the pitcher’s plate to a base to catch a runner, goes into a stand or a bench, or
over or through a field fence or backstop. The ball is dead;

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, Jimurray said:

FED has a semantic problem with the bolded. I, however don't. But @lawump might want it addressed for some literal rule reader. 

This came up a long time ago, and someone pointed out that if you look closely, sometimes FED refers to a "pitch" and sometimes to "a pitched ball."  If you take the FED definition of "Pitch" and apply it, and use some definition like "until it reaches the catcher" for "Pitched Ball" you get reasonably logical answers in the FED rules.

I don't have the books handy to see if that's still the case (or if I have it backwards) or if it applies in most but not all of the instances, etc.

[maven]

FED 2-28-4:

Quote

A pitch ends when the pitched ball:
a. is secured by the catcher,
b. comes to rest,
c. goes out of play,
d. becomes dead,
e. or the batter hits the ball (other than a foul tip).

And HBP is defined in 8-1-1d in terms of the "pitched ball" striking the batter, not the pitch.

'Pitched ball' is one of the three categories of live ball in play, along with 'batted ball' and 'thrown ball'.

[beerguy55]

8 minutes ago, maven said:

FED 2-28-4:

And HBP is defined in 8-1-1d in terms of the "pitched ball" striking the batter, not the pitch.

'Pitched ball' is one of the three categories of live ball in play, along with 'batted ball' and 'thrown ball'.

So, conceivably, by this definition anyway, a batter could strike at a pitch that has rolled to the backstop, as it is a pitch until it comes to rest, and it would completely be the umpire's judgment to whether he struck at the ball.  Considering that a few weeks ago in NCAA(or MiLB?) an umpire ruled a strike on a joke swing a batter made at a pitch that was about 20 feet away from him.   Or has any "official" feedback came to light on that umpire's judgment on that particular strike at the ball?   On the other side, I'm guessing that perhaps, conceivably, an umpire could rule that a swing at a pitch 30 feet over the batter's head was not a strike AT the ball.

[maven]

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

So, conceivably, by this definition anyway, a batter could strike at a pitch that has rolled to the backstop, as it is a pitch until it comes to rest, and it would completely be the umpire's judgment to whether he struck at the ball.

Yes.

1 hour ago, beerguy55 said:

Considering that a few weeks ago in NCAA(or MiLB?) an umpire ruled a strike on a joke swing a batter made at a pitch that was about 20 feet away from him.

Judgments calls can be correct or incorrect.