Youth Baseball Balk Warnings

[Guest NJ Coach]

Probably every little league program has balk warning rules for pitchers,  say each pitcher gets 1 warning before balk is enforced, or 2..or however many.

Imagine this scenario and others like it.  R3 has very big lead.  Pitcher begins delivery and R3 starts to steal home. Pitcher balks in delivery and throws to third base.  R3 steals home safely.   Ump calls balk 'warning.'  Should R3 be sent back to third base even though he scored despite the balk ?  It seems to me the balk warning concept is only intended for situations when runners aren't trying to advance at that moment.  Or put another way, a defense shouldn't benefit from a balk warning.

Thoughts about this ?  Are any of you aware of particular local little league rules that make this distinction ?

 

[Rich Ives]

1 hour ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

I'm having a hard time explaining....It goes like this:  R3 big lead. F1 interrupts delivery and throws to F5.  Ump shouts "balk" and R3 scores on the play.   Since this it the first balk call, it's a "warning" and youth pitcher gets a do-over.  I wonder if you are aware of youth leagues that specifically allow this run to score....or wouldhe get sent back due to it being the first balk call ( and a do-over) for the pitcher.)

Do over is wrong. Pretending the balk didn't happen is the right way to do it. 

[JonnyCat]

8 minutes ago, Guest Nick said:

To NJ coach:

It sounds like what you are saying is the umpire called "balk" which made the ball dead. Once the ball was dead runner could not advance. But rather than enforce the balk penalty he choose to issue a warning. Is that correct?

Balks are not immediately dead in LL.

[JonnyCat]

Your situation describes exactly why balk warnings are not a good idea. With balk warnings, you don't allow the runner to advance, letting the defense benefit from their mistake. A pitcher could puposely balk when a runner is stealing in order to negate the advance.

Leagues should not have balk warnings. Coaches should be teaching proper pitching mechanics.

[Rich Ives]

9 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Probably every little league program has balk warning rules for pitchers,  say each pitcher gets 1 warning before balk is enforced, or 2..or however many.

Imagine this scenario and others like it.  R3 has very big lead.  Pitcher begins delivery and R3 starts to steal home. Pitcher balks in delivery and throws to third base.  R3 steals home safely.   Ump calls balk 'warning.'  Should R3 be sent back to third base even though he scored despite the balk ?  It seems to me the balk warning concept is only intended for situations when runners aren't trying to advance at that moment.  Or put another way, a defense shouldn't benefit from a balk warning.

Thoughts about this ?  Are any of you aware of particular local little league rules that make this distinction ?

 

 I don't get your send back comment. Call the balk and the runner scores. Don't call the balk  and the runner scored anyhow. Let the pitcher have his warning.

[Rich Ives]

1 minute ago, JonnyCat said:

Your situation describes exactly why balk warnings are not a good idea. With balk warnings, you don't allow the runner to advance, letting the defense benefit from their mistake. A pitcher could puposely balk when a runner is stealing in order to negate the advance.

Leagues should not have balk warnings. Coaches should be teaching proper pitching mechanics.

The runner in the OP would advance on the balk. If you don't call it he advanced on the steal.

[ricka56]

This is exactly why balk warnings are a bad idea. But if warnings are prescribed, then the defense may benefit as you described.

Warning don't teach the youth not to balk. Penalties do. If I was an umpire, I would get the balk warning done ASAP and penalize after.

[JonnyCat]

1 minute ago, Rich Ives said:

The runner would advance on the balk.

Then why have a balk warning? If the run scores, it's a balk and not a warning no matter how you phrase it. Most leagues that I am familiar with that have balk warnings do not let any runner advance.

If you're letting the runner advance on a balk warning, it's just a balk. What's the point of having a warning?

Am I missing something?

[Mudisfun]

A local Pony league does the 'call the balk' but there is no enforcement for the 1st half of the season and the runner cannot be put out in the event of a balk. They also close 3rd base with no lead offs and R3 can only score on a ball put into play; no over throws back to F1 or pass balls to F2. This is for their 9-10 YO group but into the 2nd half they enforce without warning all balks. 

At this age group I have no issues with not truly enforcing the penalty... heck after 2 pitches most runners are standing on 3rd anyhow since the F1 is so concerned with R1 he either overthrows to 1st on a pick off attempt or is so worried about a balk that his delivery home is quick as molasses in winter time (to steal a line from the Outlaw Josey Wales) so R1 has no problem advancing.

As for older kids... my son is playing 14u Pony having come out of years at LL where there are no balks... bases are closed through Majors. He is a pitcher and has quickly had to understand and learn what is a balk and how not to commit one. The first couple games the umpires would call, enforce and explain if asked by coaches or pitchers the infraction since most of this was/is new to them... but only for a couple games. At this point in the season they call the balk, tell what it was (no stop, shoulder etc) and move on. Up to the coaches to coach and correct the issue. So far so good...

[Guest NJ Coach]

I'm having a hard time explaining....It goes like this:  R3 big lead. F1 interrupts delivery and throws to F5.  Ump shouts "balk" and R3 scores on the play.   Since this it the first balk call, it's a "warning" and youth pitcher gets a do-over.  I wonder if you are aware of youth leagues that specifically allow this run to score....or wouldhe get sent back due to it being the first balk call ( and a do-over) for the pitcher.)

[Mudisfun]

What specifically does the local rule state? If not clear then what is the approved ruling from the league or organizing bodies UIC? Here is the issue with these types of modifications... they dilute and make generic answers for the same rule sets hard since the interpretation will vary by location to location.

My ruling, if this was in place and without additional guidance from the league would be balk the pitcher, enforce the local rule by issuing the warning and put R3 back on third. Sucks but that is how the league apparently wants this enforced. Now when enough people go to the board and complain then they may make a change or come out with an approved ruling allowing the run to score in the future.

[JonnyCat]

5 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

I'm having a hard time explaining....It goes like this:  R3 big lead. F1 interrupts delivery and throws to F5.  Ump shouts "balk" and R3 scores on the play.   Since this it the first balk call, it's a "warning" and youth pitcher gets a do-over.  I wonder if you are aware of youth leagues that specifically allow this run to score....or wouldhe get sent back due to it being the first balk call ( and a do-over) for the pitcher.)

The point of a balk warning is to not award a base on the balk, but rather a "do over" as you describe. In your situation, if the runner was awarded home, then it is just a regular balk. There is no point in having a "balk warning" regulation in place. If you're going to advance the runner, then what's the point of a warning?

You can't have a "balk warning" and still award bases. That makes it just a balk.

So, either your local "balk warning" rule is really just a balk, or the umpire improperly awarded the runner home.

Perhaps a revision of your local balk warning rule is in order.

[Rich Ives]

43 minutes ago, JonnyCat said:

Then why have a balk warning? If the run scores, it's a balk and not a warning no matter how you phrase it. Most leagues that I am familiar with that have balk warnings do not let any runner advance.

If you're letting the runner advance on a balk warning, it's just a balk. What's the point of having a warning?

Am I missing something?

Yes - the poster said the runner would get sent back - but he scored so he wouldn't. 

[noumpere]

30 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

I'm having a hard time explaining....It goes like this:  R3 big lead. F1 interrupts delivery and throws to F5.  Ump shouts "balk" and R3 scores on the play.   Since this it the first balk call, it's a "warning" and youth pitcher gets a do-over.  I wonder if you are aware of youth leagues that specifically allow this run to score....or wouldhe get sent back due to it being the first balk call ( and a do-over) for the pitcher.)

I am aware of such rules.  And, I am aware that many local rules don't address this.  That's why we often say "local rules are made by fools."  The intent is (usually) good, but the implementation is lacking.

[stevis]

No, you could run it as Mudisfun describes--issue the "warning" and the runner can't be put out, but can keep what they can legally get.  I guess that's less a warning than a milder penalty, but you could do it.

Since I can't get my league to get rid of it entirely (though I badgered them down to only the first week this year), I'm going to advance that as an approved ruling next season. 

[Guest NJ Coach]

Cat...By "runner scores on the play" I meant reaching home safely rather than by being awarded home by the ump.

F1 throws to F5.  Balk is called but R3 steals home..let's say without even throw F5-F2....being the first balk for pitcher, is issued "warning" and do-over play.  R3 sent back to third.

It seems to me the point of the do-overs is to forgive pitcher motion mistakes which give them an illegal advantage...not to disadvantage the offense by sending runners back as in the example.

[JonnyCat]

17 minutes ago, Guest NJ Coach said:

Cat...By "runner scores on the play" I meant reaching home safely rather than by being awarded home by the ump.

F1 throws to F5.  Balk is called but R3 steals home..let's say without even throw F5-F2....being the first balk for pitcher, is issued "warning" and do-over play.  R3 sent back to third.

It seems to me the point of the do-overs is to forgive pitcher motion mistakes which give them an illegal advantage...not to disadvantage the offense by sending runners back as in the example.

So if I'm to understand correctly, your local rule lets players advance on a balk if they already advancing. i.e. stealing? And they don't advance on a balk where no one is moving?

What if they get thrown out, say, stealing? Does the out stand, do they get sent back, or do they get the base? What if the ball is put into play? What then?

In your situation, regardless if the runner on 3rd "scored" safely, if the pitcher balks, it's still an award. The balk is still enforced. I just don't see the point of having a "balk warning" if sometimes you're going to advance the runner, and other times not.

[Guest Nick]

To NJ coach:

It sounds like what you are saying is the umpire called "balk" which made the ball dead. Once the ball was dead runner could not advance. But rather than enforce the balk penalty he choose to issue a warning. Is that correct?

[JonnyCat]

44 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Yes - the poster said the runner would get sent back - but he scored so he wouldn't. 

If the runner gets to score, then it's just a regular balk. How does the warning come into play? Just because a runner scores doesn't mean we ignore the balk, it's still enforced and home is awarded. How does a warning come into play in this scenario?

What, does it go like this? "that's a balk, but the runner was advancing and going to score anyway, so we're going to let him score, but Billy, please come set(or whatever the infraction was), and don't do that again, this is your warning."

WTF!

[JonnyCat]

24 minutes ago, Rich Ives said:

Do over is wrong. Pretending the balk didn't happen is the right way to do it. 

Ok, that at least makes more sense.

But, what if the runner is thrown out? Do you let him advance, or send him back? Serious question for learning purposes.

[basejester]

 

[Guest NJ Coach]

This didn't actually happen.   Last night (the first game of year) I didn't send runners early to entice a balk because of the confusion and disagreement about the "warning/do-over" I knew it would cause. I asked the umps before the game how this would be handled, the other mgr got fiesty and I dropped the issue.

I am asking now if any are aware of youth league rule examples that address this issue...that I could show to the league.

It seems to me that there should be umpire discretion, even with warning rules,to allow a play to stand if the balk didn't harm the offense,

[Mister B]

2 hours ago, ricka56 said:

This is exactly why balk warnings are a bad idea. But if warnings are prescribed, then the defense may benefit as you described.

Warning don't teach the youth not to balk. Penalties do. If I was an umpire, I would get the balk warning done ASAP and penalize after.

I did a LL Majors scrimmage game last night. I warned a batter for stepping out of the box. (Actually, he was stomping to the dugout after swinging and missing) Next pitch is a called strike, and again, batter stomps off towards the dugout. I called the third strike. I felt bad, but for the rest of the game, the coaches, players and fans were hyper-aware of the new rule. "Get in the box!!" was loud and clear. It actually did speed up the game a little. Although both teams had good catchers so fewer passed balls helped as well. A couple parents asked me about the rule and the consensus was that if it speeds up the games, they are all for it. But nobody seemed upset. One of the opposing coaches thought it was a bit harsh for this early in the season. 

The batter was on my son's team and we did discuss the rule in depth at one of our practices. Prior to that, I had made about 6 warnings. 

So I would agree, penalties are much more effective than warnings. 

[FleasOf1000Camels]

If your default rule set mimics OBR, there is no problem.  Look at the OP.  R3 leads off, F1 stops delivery and throws to F5...umpire yells BALK, runner scores.  Since F1 threw to a base, and runner advanced, BALK (or in this case warning) is ignored.

I hate leagues/tournaments that want warnings.  Best way to teach proper procedure is to punish the offender...they WILL learn.

[MooseLoop]

One balk warning per pitcher is a common local rule in my youth ballgames below age 12, and is discussed in the plate meeting.  The rule is rarely written, and never deals with the nuances of not enforcing balks.  I tell the coaches that if I think the balk affects a play, I'll place the runners, sort of like obstruction.  (In my mind, "sort of" does not include an automatic one-base award.)  They often get an oh-yeah look in their eyes, confirming that the issue never occurred to them.  They then agree.  Most balks do not involve a runner advancing or being put out, and I am surprised at how little I have to get involved.  And I never have had an argument about runner placement on a balk warning. 

I do urge a "see a balk, call a balk" rule as being a more effective teaching tool, but most dad coaches feel that is too harsh.  

[JonnyCat]

1 hour ago, FleasOf1000Camels said:

If your default rule set mimics OBR, there is no problem.  Look at the OP.  R3 leads off, F1 stops delivery and throws to F5...umpire yells BALK, runner scores.  Since F1 threw to a base, and runner advanced, BALK (or in this case warning) is ignored.

I hate leagues/tournaments that want warnings.  Best way to teach proper procedure is to punish the offender...they WILL learn.

Balk is not ignored in OBR under these conditions. BR must reach 1B safely and all other runners must advance at least one base in order to disregard the balk. In this situation, enforce the balk. 8.05 penalty. (Old reference number)