F3 can use a trapper (special/different glove), but what defines F3?

[beerguy55]

This is more common a scenario in softball/fast pitch than baseball, though I can see use cases for it in baseball as well - maybe some strange shift scenarios.  I will often, especially for known bunters/slappers, switch my first baseman and second baseman - move my first baseman almost next to the pitcher's circle, and have the second baseman play a couple of steps off the line, behind first base.   In essence, I've given my second baseman a trapper.   

I have in a few different situations had coaches complain, but I have usually won the argument, except in one scenario where I had an umpire rule my "second baseman" - that is, the guy with the trapper was now a second baseman - was using illegal equipment, and rule they had to swap gloves when I did this shift - I decided in this game it wasn't worth filing a protest, but I still wonder if he knew something I didn't.  

My argument is simple - look at the lineup card...number 17's position is 3.   There is nothing in any rule book, in any level or organization that I have seen, in US or Canada, in baseball nor softball, that says exactly where my first baseman has to play, except that he/she must be in fair territory.  The only two positions defined in the rule books, as far as I can see, are the pitcher and the catcher.  But I would like to know if I'm wrong.

Is there a guideline that umpires are taught...especially if I were to abuse this rule and simply put my F3 (by lineup card) in the shortstop hole all game?

 

[JaxRolo]

Don't know what you mean by "Tapper but

Never seen this done and don't see why you couldn't do it.

 

[Mudisfun]

The only argument from the DC side I could see would be that the glove of the 'F3' goes more with the bag than the actual position player on the line up card. The argument could be made that your F4 being basically at the bag is the de facto F3 in this one situation but that is a stretch.

[udbrky]

Well, if this helps, here's what happened in a Cubs game.

 

It was a known bunt situation, Rizzo came in to about 3 feet from home. Baez switched to his 1B glove and covered 1B.

 

And the pitch was missed and Ross threw down to pick off the runner at 1B.

[NorthTexasUmp]

Something like this??

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/94951848/v1203913683

 

 

[beerguy55]

1 hour ago, JaxRolo said:

Don't know what you mean by "Tapper but

Never seen this done and don't see why you couldn't do it.

 

Maybe it's a Canadian thing - I've always called a 1B glove a "trapper" and a catcher's mitt a "decker"...although I meet very few people who get the "decker" reference.   Softball Canada rule book specifically uses the word "trapper" for both.

[beerguy55]

16 minutes ago, NorthTexasUmp said:

Something like this??

http://m.mlb.com/video/topic/94951848/v1203913683

 

 

Yeah, and what the announcers are saying doesn't makes sense from a rule book perspective.  Because the MLB rules don't define where the first baseman has to play.  It only makes sense, to me, if the second baseman was going to put on a first baseman's glove (which I think he did) - because you can't have two players wearing such a glove at the same time.

 In softball, it is common to have the first baseman in halfway to home on any bunting scenario, so they're not playing the bag - and though the second baseman is playing the traditional second base position, he/she is the one who is covering first on the bunt, whether the bunt went to the first baseman or not.

[noumpere]

I would say, with no justification other than my particular view of common sense, that since it's a special allowance, only one player can wear the trapper.  Where this player plays is up to the coach, but it doesn't make sense for the long run for it to be anyone other than the "normal" F3.

[Jimurray]

Why not bring F4, sure hands, good short range arm, in and leave F3 at 1B?

[beerguy55]

2 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Why not bring F4, sure hands, good short range arm, in and leave F3 at 1B?

Typical softball configuration is F3 in 30-40 feet from plate, but only a step off the baseline, and F4 playing normal position, but covers first on bunts - most teams have F3 play bunts down the first baseline, throwing to F4 who is covering first no matter who plays the bunt.  My scenario is a hybrid of that, just shifting F3 over about five steps, covering off "no man's land" in between the rubber and 1B, then shifting F4 to cover the gap now made down the line.   Since F4 typically covers first on bunts, receiving the throw is nothing new.   The bigger glove gives F3 a bit of an advantage in that position, especially since quick reaction becomes more relevant, and simply knocking the ball down becomes more important.  If you can just stop the ball you typically have time to throw out the runner. 

Having said that, I have ALSO done as you suggest, and switched F3 with F4 on standard bunting at bats, putting F4 about 30-40 feet from the plate, on the line, and then moving F3 over to where F4 normally plays, having F4 play the bunt/slap, as the better fielder, and F3 to cover first, as the better receiver.  The other advantage here is if the batter does actually hit the ball, and hit it to F3, my F4 is fast enough (at least much faster than F3) to get back to first base.  And, funny enough, I have also had coaches try to complain about that configuration, saying that my player is playing second base with a first baseman's glove.

In either scenario, at the time of the pitch,  F4 is closer to first base than F3, but  F3 is wearing the trapper.  But I have yet to find anything in the rules that says that the person with the trapper must be the person closest to first base.  Not that it matter's who's closest.   I've seen games where putouts are scored 3-4, 2-4, 1-4, or 5-4 eight or more times in seven innings, and F3 only gets a couple of putouts.  Who's really playing first base?

[stevis]

15 hours ago, beerguy55 said:

Yeah, and what the announcers are saying doesn't makes sense from a rule book perspective.  Because the MLB rules don't define where the first baseman has to play.  It only makes sense, to me, if the second baseman was going to put on a first baseman's glove (which I think he did) - because you can't have two players wearing such a glove at the same time.

 In softball, it is common to have the first baseman in halfway to home on any bunting scenario, so they're not playing the bag - and though the second baseman is playing the traditional second base position, he/she is the one who is covering first on the bunt, whether the bunt went to the first baseman or not.

I believe it was the Pirates who insisted late in the season that if Baez was holding the runner and Rizzo was up the batter's gullet, Rizzo shouldn't get to have the 1b mitt.   The Cubs sort of shrugged and said "ok" and took the minute to switch gloves.  Which then set up the designed pickoff play they used in the postseason.  i don't know that there was ever a definitive ruling, but "the player holding the runner on 1b is F3" makes intuitive sense.

 

10 hours ago, Jimurray said:

Why not bring F4, sure hands, good short range arm, in and leave F3 at 1B?

In the specific Cubs case, Rizzo throws lefthanded and presumably has an easier throw across the diamond to get the runner(s).   If you employed a RH lummox at 1b, your idea might be the best way to employ this alignment.

Then again, whichever fielder is in, for anything less than an MLB pitcher facing MLB pitching, I think you're risking your fielder losing some teeth when the batter swings away (if you're as agressive as Rizzo was.)