Pitcher hands

[Guest T buck18]

Pitcher takes rubber in set position with a runner on base. While engaging on to rubber he already has his hands together with the ball in the glove as well.

I remember reading something about this either in PBUC or OBR or NFHS rules on what to do if calling a balk or tell the pitcher to break his hands etc or step off etc.

Any help here on what rules it falls under or interpretation manual etc to locate this as I have been searching them since yesterday with no luck

Thanks

TB

[BT_Blue]

I believe NFHS wants us to warn F1 to separate his hands. Then the second time to balk this.

I am NEVER balking this at any level. I would just just instruct F1 that he needs to separate his hands. Hopefully he actually listens.

[ALStripes17]

What rule has F1 violated? Both NFHS and OBR say that the pitcher may use a preliminary stretch if he so chooses.

So, pitchers are allowed to engage the rubber in the set position with hands together. Nothing prohibits it by rule.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Edit: I stand corrected... NFHS does not have the verbiage for an F1 to choose to use a stretch. By technicality, this would be a balk/illegal pitch in NFHS.

[maven]

7 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

What rule has F1 violated? Both NFHS and OBR say that the pitcher may use a preliminary stretch if he so chooses.

So, pitchers are allowed to engage the rubber in the set position with hands together. Nothing prohibits it by rule.

The restriction is implicit. To be legally in the set, F1 must have his pitching hand "down at his side or behind his back" (this is FED 6-1-3, but OBR is substantially the same). IOW, the set position requires a time with the hands separated.

If F1 engages the rubber with his hands together, then he must separate them to be legally in the set. But if he separates his hands while engaged, then he's committed immediately to throw/feint to a base or pitch (6-2-4e). So engaging the rubber in the set with hands together entails a violation (it works OK in the windup).

If observed, kill it and fix it before he can violate. Explain if necessary. If he does it again, well, he had his chance!

[Jimurray]

2 hours ago, Guest T buck18 said:

Pitcher takes rubber in set position with a runner on base. While engaging on to rubber he already has his hands together with the ball in the glove as well.

I remember reading something about this either in PBUC or OBR or NFHS rules on what to do if calling a balk or tell the pitcher to break his hands etc or step off etc.

Any help here on what rules it falls under or interpretation manual etc to locate this as I have been searching them since yesterday with no luck

Thanks

TB

Hands together while engaging and remaining together is usually a do not do that in OBR. But some pitchers engage the rubber while reaching for the ball in the glove and do not continue to keep the hands together. That is considered momentary adjustment and is permitted. 

[maven]

1 hour ago, Jimurray said:

Hands together while engaging and remaining together is usually a do not do that in OBR. But some pitchers engage the rubber while reaching for the ball in the glove and do not continue to keep the hands together. That is considered momentary adjustment and is permitted. 

That's not "momentary adjustment," it's just ignored.

"Momentary adjustment" is a phrase used in the interpretation of the windup rule, which requires F1 to pitch "without interruption or alteration" (OBR 5.07(a)(1), FED 6-1-2). Bringing the hands together in the windup commits F1 to pitch, but by interpretation he is permitted a "momentary adjustment" of the ball prior to pitching, without violating the "without interruption or alteration" clause.

[Jimurray]

21 minutes ago, maven said:

That's not "momentary adjustment," it's just ignored.

"Momentary adjustment" is a phrase used in the interpretation of the windup rule, which requires F1 to pitch "without interruption or alteration" (OBR 5.07(a)(1), FED 6-1-2). Bringing the hands together in the windup commits F1 to pitch, but by interpretation he is permitted a "momentary adjustment" of the ball prior to pitching, without violating the "without interruption or alteration" clause.

PBUC or Evans or both allows for momentary adjustment in the set and windup. 

[Guest Tbuck]

Can anyone site the OBR for this as if umpire called a balk for the pitcher starting all together with hand and ball together initially without separation and there was a protest as now it's interpretation the rule would govern.

help?

[Jimurray]

49 minutes ago, Guest Tbuck said:

Can anyone site the OBR for this as if umpire called a balk for the pitcher starting all together with hand and ball together initially without separation and there was a protest as now it's interpretation the rule would govern.

help?

The rule would govern. Cite the penalty in the rule. 

[Senor Azul]

From the 2014 PBUC (section 8.5, p. 91):  Prior to assuming a legal pitching position (windup or set position) it is permissible for the pitcher to momentarily adjust the ball in his glove. In order for this to be allowed, the movement must be momentary in nature. If the pitcher has his hands together long enough that, in the judgment of the umpire, it appears that he has actually come to a set position or has actually assumed the wind-up position, then should the pitcher separate his hands, a balk shall be called …

The Wendelstedt manual (2013 edition, p. 95) says the same thing.

[Senor Azul]

Pitchers may not engage the rubber with hands together and, conversely, may not disengage the rubber without separating the hands. We get that from OBR 5.07(a)(1) and (2) [old number 8.01(a) and (b)] which deals with the two legal pitching positions. There is no penalty listed for a pitcher engaging the rubber with his hands together.

Since there is no penalty listed, the rule is referred to as a “don’t do that” rule. Umpires are to immediately call time and instruct the pitcher to correct the infraction. The Jaksa/Roder rules interpretation manual suggests that a warning should be given and if there is a second violation eject the pitcher.

[Jimurray]

30 minutes ago, Senor Azul said:

Pitchers may not engage the rubber with hands together and, conversely, may not disengage the rubber without separating the hands before reengaging. We get that from OBR 5.07(a)(1) and (2) [old number 8.01(a) and (b)] which deals with the two legal pitching positions. There is no penalty listed for a pitcher engaging the rubber with his hands together.

 

Since there is no penalty listed, the rule is referred to as a “don’t do that” rule. Umpires are to immediately call time and instruct the pitcher to correct the infraction. The Jaksa/Roder rules interpretation manual suggests that a warning should be given and if there is a second violation eject the pitcher.

 

Since the OP might be dealing with literal rules readers, I added the bold.

[DWDIII]

I don't see the problem with starting in the set in OBR - the rule reads that he "may elect" to use "the stretch" - the pitcher in the OP simply did not elect to do so - he is set immediately- if he is at a couple stop and doesn't do anything illegal then I have no problem. 

[Jimurray]

17 minutes ago, DWDIII said:

I don't see the problem with starting in the set in OBR - the rule reads that he "may elect" to use "the stretch" - the pitcher in the OP simply did not elect to do so - he is set immediately- if he is at a couple stop and doesn't do anything illegal then I have no problem. 

Except that he has violated the rule and we should tell him not to do that. The runners are used to seeing the pitcher come set with hands apart.

[noumpere]

9 hours ago, DWDIII said:

I don't see the problem with starting in the set in OBR - the rule reads that he "may elect" to use "the stretch" - the pitcher in the OP simply did not elect to do so - he is set immediately- if he is at a couple stop and doesn't do anything illegal then I have no problem. 

"Stretch" is not *just* the act of of joining the hands.  It's the action that most pitchers used to take of raising both hands above the head and then joining the hands as they were brought down to (about) chest level.  It's that "raising" that's optional.  Coming set by joning the hands is NOT optional,and you can't start in the set (hands together) position

[Jimurray]

On November 21, 2016 at 5:25 PM, maven said:

That's not "momentary adjustment," it's just ignored.

"Momentary adjustment" is a phrase used in the interpretation of the windup rule, which requires F1 to pitch "without interruption or alteration" (OBR 5.07(a)(1), FED 6-1-2). Bringing the hands together in the windup commits F1 to pitch, but by interpretation he is permitted a "momentary adjustment" of the ball prior to pitching, without violating the "without interruption or alteration" clause.

Bringing the hands together and stopping in the windup does not commit the pitcher to pitch in OBR. 

[Guest Jason]

Legal in full windup, not stretch. Happened tonight actually. If a pitcher chooses to pitch from the stretch, (with runner on) pitchers MUST start with separated hands with the throwing hand visible to the runner(s). Then come to the set position. It's pretty clear in all rule books

[maven]