2 hypothetical situations

[Mister B]

While reading the LL rule book, I try to come up with scenarios to confound them. It's LL the more you think it can't happen, the more likely it is to happen.

First situation, B hits and heads for first hard. F3 has his foot on top of the base, covering most of it. BR would have been safe but jumps over/goes around the base to avoid an injury. Would you call obstruction? Is it obstruction? 

Second situation, 1 out runners at 1B and 2B. A hit to deep right, for a triple with R1 and R2 scoring. R1 missed touching 2B. DT appeals by touching 2B and calling that he's out. R1 is out and his run is removed. I'm thinking that nothing happens with R2 or BR because R2 was out before they passed him. Am I correct? 

Same situation but with 2 outs. R1 is out by force upon the appeal, therefore no runs are scored. Correct? 

Thanks. I guessing that regardless of the appeal the out occurs when it should have happened, not upon appeal. 

[Rich Ives]

18 minutes ago, Mister B said:

While reading the LL rule book, I try to come up with scenarios to confound them. It's LL the more you think it can't happen, the more likely it is to happen.

First situation, B hits and heads for first hard. F3 has his foot on top of the base, covering most of it. BR would have been safe but jumps over/goes around the base to avoid an injury. Would you call obstruction? Is it obstruction? 

Second situation, 1 out runners at 1B and 2B. A hit to deep right, for a triple with R1 and R2 scoring. R1 missed touching 2B. DT appeals by touching 2B and calling that he's out. R1 is out and his run is removed. I'm thinking that nothing happens with R2 or BR because R2 was out before they passed him. Am I correct? 

Same situation but with 2 outs. R1 is out by force upon the appeal, therefore no runs are scored. Correct? 

Thanks. I guessing that regardless of the appeal the out occurs when it should have happened, not upon appeal. 

First: Your "would have been safe" says the runner beat the throw bit failed to touch 1B.  As such he IS safe unless the miss is clearly appealed appealed.  Obstruction or not is a HTBT. If the umpire judges that the fielder's position caused the altered path it would be obstruction. As it was seemingly during a play on the runner and before the runner reached 1B it is an immediate dead ball and the runner is awarded 1B. (In addition, if  obstruction prevents the runner from touching the base you can rule "safe" on a missed base appeal.)

Second: Missing a base does NOT cause a passing situation for the trail runners. A runner must be physically passed to have an out for passing.

Third: You are correct. But it's the force that kills the runs, not the time issue.

Finally: An appeal out happens when the appeal is made. Important to know for a time play.

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, Mister B said:

While reading the LL rule book, I try to come up with scenarios to confound them. It's LL the more you think it can't happen, the more likely it is to happen.

First situation, B hits and heads for first hard. F3 has his foot on top of the base, covering most of it. BR would have been safe but jumps over/goes around the base to avoid an injury. Would you call obstruction? Is it obstruction? 

Second situation, 1 out runners at 1B and 2B. A hit to deep right, for a triple with R1 and R2 scoring. R1 missed touching 2B. DT appeals by touching 2B and calling that he's out. R1 is out and his run is removed. I'm thinking that nothing happens with R2 or BR because R2 R1 was out before they passed him. Am I correct? 

Same situation but with 2 outs. R1 is out by force upon the appeal, therefore no runs are scored. Correct? 

Thanks. I guessing that regardless of the appeal the out occurs when it should have happened, not upon appeal. 

1) This is treated the same as if F3 was blocking the base.  I can't give you a better answer, because I don't know if LL has the ":in the act of fielding" exception in the book; nor does your play address it.

2a) (I think you meant what I fixed) An appeal out never creates a "passing" situation.  You are correct that R1 is out, and R2 and BR are unaffected.

2b) Correct

2c) Incorrect -- the appeal out happens when the appeal is made, not when the runner misses the base (or leaves early).  But, if the out is the third out and it's a force out, then no runs can score.  And, if it's the third out but NOT a force out, then any runners who trail the runner who is out cannot score.

 

[Mister B]

In 1, F3 would be waiting on the throw from another player.

Not sure if this is the same thing but In LL the fielder must be in control of the ball to not be called for blocking. 

Yes, I meant R1 was out. 

Okay, the force trumps the time. I should have realized that. Too much time in a book, not enough on the field. Just want to make sure I'm ready when I get back on the field.  

[stkjock]

55 minutes ago, Mister B said:

 

First situation, B hits and heads for first hard. F3 has his foot on top of the base, covering most of it. BR would have been safe but jumps over/goes around the base to avoid an injury. Would you call obstruction? Is it obstruction? 

I can say after coaching LL Majors the last two years, 2 12U travel seasons last year,  this happens all too often.  I've gotten little satisfaction from the boys in black (or blue) when I've asked them to be aware that F3 was leaving no room for my BR to touch the base.  A few will warn F3 or the HC of the team.. 

 

I look at it as a safety issue, 11/12s are not always in the best control of their bodies, very easy to get spiked/tangled up.

[basejester]

47 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I can't give you a better answer, because I don't know if LL has the ":in the act of fielding" exception in the book;

LL does not.

[Mister B]

1 hour ago, stkjock said:

I can say after coaching LL Majors the last two years, 2 12U travel seasons last year,  this happens all too often.  I've gotten little satisfaction from the boys in black (or blue) when I've asked them to be aware that F3 was leaving no room for my BR to touch the base.  A few will warn F3 or the HC of the team.. 

 

I look at it as a safety issue, 11/12s are not always in the best control of their bodies, very easy to get spiked/tangled up.

This actually happened to my son, but he slowed down and was called out. I told him to just go around or jump over, and leave it to the umpire. It's much easier to appeal/argue, if the runner is beyond 1B when the catch is made than if he doesn't make it there. 

Since I'll be starting to work fall ball (10u and 12u) in a week, I'm sure I'm going to see it, so I should be clear on what I call or warn about. 

When I did ask other umpires about it, they were very vague in their response. I understand that there is some judgement in there, but there is also a huge safety issue. Do we address it now, or wait until somebody gets horribly messed up and then add a specific rule? I know we can still play with the double 1B, but we've already taught the kids, that is for Tee Ball.