Tough Night

[HuskerUmp22]

Well it was a brutal night on the diamond for me. Here we have a break in the HS season so I decide to sign up for a 14 usssa regular season game.  I'm kind of venting but I would also like some of you to comment on how I can do better. 

1. Plate Meeting Pregame: I go over normal stuff and then I noticed before the plate meeting all the players for the visiting team are outside the dugout swinging their bats. I tell the coaches that please only two swingers in between innings. VTHC asks me why? I reply for safety reasons. He comments, "I don't understand, no other umpire as told us this, it seems to be helping us with our hitting..." I say well that's the way we are doing it tonight. HTHC says "Ok." THE VTHC is not satisfied but I move on. Definitely not a good way to start even before the game starts. Anything here? Should I have not even mentioned this in the plate meeting? 

2. Bottom of 1st.  R1. Pitcher completely rolls through his set position. I raise my hands and call a balk. My partner doesn't call it.  We have R1 stealing and then an overthrow leading R1 to 3rd base. I run out and say, "Time. I have a balk." And I put the runner back at second. I hear some groaning from the batting team (HT) but they don't say much. After the inning my partner comes to me and tells me I didn't handle that right. So we talk it over... I am kind of annoyed that my partner isn't backing me at all but I should have called balk (not raising my arms or saying "balk" quietly so no one heard) and then once we had the overthrow completely killed the play. To make this situation worse after this I look down at my clicker and see 1-1 but the batter tells me there's only been one pitch. Now I don't know if it's a ball or strike. I ask my partner. He doesn't know. Now I say 1 ball and we play on. Ugggh. This is in the 1st inning and I'm thinking what a nightmare start. 

3. 4th inning and 1 out R2. Batter hits a single, I have a play at the plate. Now R2 is clearly out but F2 tags him hard on the helmet. HTHC comes out complaining that his player got hit hard in the helmet and should not have been called out. 1B coach also is arguing and I tell him he is not the HC to go back to his place. He did apologize to me after the inning was over. But the HC keeps wining I tell him to stop. Fan is complaining about the play. I ignore him. We move on. 

4. R2 1out. Steal play and my partner is in the A position. I completely forgot about what is going on and just assumed he would know to be in the C. We have a steal and thankfully the play was not close. My partner was humiliated but I could not believe I didn't notice and call time to bring him over. Ugggh. Obviously coaches notice things like these that only hurts you as umpires. 

5.. Bottom of 6th inning HT down 7-0. Bases loaded 1 out. Boarderline pitch that almost hits the batter. I did not think it hit him but the batter thought he got hit. I say no stay in the box. He ends up striking out. Btw I called strike 3 on probably 7 kids on their team. They were not aggressive. Next batter in same inning 3-1 pitch I call a lower strike that my partner said after the game he thought it was down. What I saw was a pitch that was just below the knee and the catcher's glove did not move down: Strike! The kid strikes out swinging to end the game. Now we have to exit. My partner decides to exit the HT side but I was thinking we should not. So we exit that way and of course the coach makes a couple comments and then as we walk out says: "That was horrible. You should be ashamed of yourselves." I say nothing and leave.

I'm feeling very frustrated right now and honestly these are nights where you just want to throw your gear out and quit. But I just have to learn and move past it. These games happen and I'm glad it wasn't a High School game or something. 

[blue23ll]

Hey, sometimes caca happens. For me, it is usually in these kind of kids games, where focus and concentration can be lacking. The coaches are generally not very knowledgeable and they can do and say things that really throw you off balance. What can we learn from this?? 

1) "Coach, get your players on the bench and those bats put down."  Don't debate it, don't answer why. 

2) What rule set is this game under? If it was OBR the ball is alive for a balk, in FED its not. Losing the count is not the end of the world, ask one of the scorers. 

3) The contact was malicious or not. Rule on the play. Not sure how the coach thought the runner should be called safe. 

4) R2 and my partner is in A? I am calling time and getting him where he needs to be, and you realize that. We need more situational awareness. 

5) How did the batter react to the pitch? Was he acting like it really hurt him or was he looking for an Academy Award? Did your partner kill the play? Calling strikes is a good thing particularly in youth ball. 

I realize how frustrating bad games can be, because we always strive to be perfect. Fight the urge to quit, be anxious to get right back out there and do better. 

[HuskerUmp22]

16 minutes ago, blue23ll said:

Hey, sometimes caca happens. For me, it is usually in these kind of kids games, where focus and concentration can be lacking. The coaches are generally not very knowledgeable and they can do and say things that really throw you off balance. What can we learn from this?? 

1) "Coach, get your players on the bench and those bats put down."  Don't debate it, don't answer why. 

2) What rule set is this game under? If it was OBR the ball is alive for a balk, in FED its not. Losing the count is not the end of the world, ask one of the scorers. 

3) The contact was malicious or not. Rule on the play. Not sure how the coach thought the runner should be called safe. 

4) R2 and my partner is in A? I am calling time and getting him where he needs to be, and you realize that. We need more situational awareness. 

5) How did the batter react to the pitch? Was he acting like it really hurt him or was he looking for an Academy Award? Did your partner kill the play? Calling strikes is a good thing particularly in youth ball. 

I realize how frustrating bad games can be, because we always strive to be perfect. Fight the urge to quit, be anxious to get right back out there and do better. 

Good points.

1) The rule set is OBR. I knew it was delayed dead so that's why I didn't kill the play right away. 

3) The contact was not malicious and that is what I should have told the coach.

5) The batter was looking for a walk I thought. My partner did not think it hit him. 

I will definitely not quit but I was frustrated. 

[noumpere]

8 hours ago, HuskerUmp22 said:

Good points.

2) The rule set is OBR. I knew it was delayed dead so that's why I didn't kill the play right away. 

1) Sometimes when a coach says "no one has told us that before" the proper response is a sincere "Thank you."

2) So R1 should stay at third (you brought him back) and the pitch does NOT count (so, as I read it, the count should have been 0-0)

4) If it was really R2, your partner should have been in C, not B (and certainly not A)

5) You can get a post-game ejection here (I doubt I would do so, but it's an option).  Another option is to respond with a sincere, "Thank you.  Your team played well."

[stl_ump]

My .02 on 1)

Is there a USSSA rule the prohibits the players from being outside the dugout swinging bats before the game start?  For me, unless it is germane to game play or a REAL safety issue I ignore it. (If they were on the other side of the fence swinging bats would you have prohibited that?

[maven]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

1) Sometimes when a coach says "no one has told us that before" the proper response is a sincere "Thank you."

2) So R1 should stay at third (you brought him back) and the pitch does NOT count (so, as I read it, the count should have been 0-0)

5) You can get a post-game ejection here (I doubt I would do so, but it's an option).  Another option is to respond with a sincere, "Thank you.  Your team played well."

1. My response to, "I've never heard that before," is "OK."

2. What am I missing? We kill it when F2 catches the pitch, right? R1 will end up on 2B, not 3B. (PBUC §8.9: "3. If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call 'Time' the moment the catcher catches the ball, then enforce the balk.")

The OP's balk mechanics need work: don't raise your hands for OBR balks, as that's the signal to call time. Point at F1 and say, "That's a balk!" — preferably so loudly that he stops, and we can kill it and enforce the balk. Your partner sounds like a douche, but if that's what he said, then he's right. Probably a note to save for the post-game: on the field, he should have your back on the balk call.

5. That's my line as well: "You're team played well." What are they gonna do, argue with that?

[noumpere]

11 minutes ago, maven said:

2. What am I missing? We kill it when F2 catches the pitch, right? R1 will end up on 2B, not 3B. (PBUC §8.9: "3. If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call 'Time' the moment the catcher catches the ball, then enforce the balk.")

 

I didn't read a catch into the play, but if there was, you are correct. 

I think I was influenced by the OP's "once we had the overthrow completely killed the play."  That's not right -- either the play is killed before the overthrow, or it's allowed to continue beyond the overthrow (depending on the circumstances).

[HuskerUmp22]

9 hours ago, noumpere said:

1) Sometimes when a coach says "no one has told us that before" the proper response is a sincere "Thank you."

2) So R1 should stay at third (you brought him back) and the pitch does NOT count (so, as I read it, the count should have been 0-0)

4) If it was really R2, your partner should have been in C, not B (and certainly not A)

5) You can get a post-game ejection here (I doubt I would do so, but it's an option).  Another option is to respond with a sincere, "Thank you.  Your team played well."

You are correct that the count should have been 0-0. I think I get confused with the "delayed dead" with OBR that I let it play out. 

4) I meant to say C, my brain must not have been working yesterday. Lol. Of course ...

7 hours ago, maven said:

1. My response to, "I've never heard that before," is "OK."

2. What am I missing? We kill it when F2 catches the pitch, right? R1 will end up on 2B, not 3B. (PBUC §8.9: "3. If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call 'Time' the moment the catcher catches the ball, then enforce the balk.")

The OP's balk mechanics need work: don't raise your hands for OBR balks, as that's the signal to call time. Point at F1 and say, "That's a balk!" — preferably so loudly that he stops, and we can kill it and enforce the balk. Your partner sounds like a douche, but if that's what he said, then he's right. Probably a note to save for the post-game: on the field, he should have your back on the balk call.

5. That's my line as well: "You're team played well." What are they gonna do, argue with that?

Thanks for the PBUC interpretation. I was wrong that you wait to kill it after the overthrow. 

[Tksjewelry]

Who was your partner and what teams were these?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

[HuskerUmp22]

37 minutes ago, Tksjewelry said:

Who was your partner and what teams were these?

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

I PM you

[jjb]

Just to clarify:

Under FED, a balk is a dead ball. When you call it, you throw both hands overhead and yell "that's a balk". You've killed the play after the balk and you'll award the runner 1 base. He goes to second on the play no matter what happens. (Watch the reaction if the batter hits a double! He's back in the box). Fed sucks.

Under OBR (and Utrip uses OBR), a balk is a delayed dead ball. The ball is still live until the play (pitch) is over. In this case, you point with your left hand at the pitcher and yell "that's a balk" and then wait to see what happens. Only then do you kill the play. In your OP, he ended up at third, and, according to the rule, the balk is nullified after he reaches second. So, he gets third. Fed still sucks.

[Stk004]

35 minutes ago, jjb said:

Just to clarify:

Under FED, a balk is a dead ball. When you call it, you throw both hands overhead and yell "that's a balk". You've killed the play after the balk and you'll award the runner 1 base. He goes to second on the play no matter what happens. (Watch the reaction if the batter hits a double! He's back in the box). Fed sucks.

Under OBR (and Utrip uses OBR), a balk is a delayed dead ball. The ball is still live until the play (pitch) is over. In this case, you point with your left hand at the pitcher and yell "that's a balk" and then wait to see what happens. Only then do you kill the play. In your OP, he ended up at third, and, according to the rule, the balk is nullified after he reaches second. So, he gets third. Fed still sucks.

What about the count on the batter? Goes back to what it was before the pitch? 

[Kevin_K]

10 hours ago, maven said:

1. My response to, "I've never heard that before," is "OK."

2. What am I missing? We kill it when F2 catches the pitch, right? R1 will end up on 2B, not 3B. (PBUC §8.9: "3. If the balk is followed by a pitch that is caught by the catcher, call 'Time' the moment the catcher catches the ball, then enforce the balk.")

The OP's balk mechanics need work: don't raise your hands for OBR balks, as that's the signal to call time. Point at F1 and say, "That's a balk!" — preferably so loudly that he stops, and we can kill it and enforce the balk. Your partner sounds like a douche, but if that's what he said, then he's right. Probably a note to save for the post-game: on the field, he should have your back on the balk call.

5. That's my line as well: "You're team played well." What are they gonna do, argue with that?

If your are PU you might not want to point if the pitch is on its way. The loud "That's a balk!" sometimes does not get them to stop. If that's the case, I would suggest staying in your stance until the ball is caught by F2.

[jjb]

1 hour ago, Stk004 said:

What about the count on the batter? Goes back to what it was before the pitch? 

No Pitch. The ball is dead at the time of the pitch. Back up and start again.

[jjb]

1 hour ago, Kevin_K said:

If your are PU you might not want to point if the pitch is on its way. The loud "That's a balk!" sometimes does not get them to stop. If that's the case, I would suggest staying in your stance until the ball is caught by F2.

Yeah, Kevin, I agree: I was talking about a BU making the call. If I'm PU, I'm staying in my stance, and yelling as loud as I can "THAT'S A BALK!" (We're talking OBS) I've still got a pitch to call, and don't want to be standing up and pointing as it's coming in. (Bad juju)  I've still got a pitch coming in to deal with.  Ball/strike doesn't matter, but I've still got HBP/foul ball/hits it to Mars to work with. I'll try and use my best Umpire Voice to stop the pitcher from delivering if I can, so I don't have to deal with the aftermath. Just don't throw your hands up (once again, in OBS): you've killed the play, and if he hits the ball you've bit the big one.....)

WarStory #462: R2, bottom of 6th, (10AA).Championship.  I'm PU, Pitcher rolls through stop, I yell balk. The ball is hit between F6 and F4 (headed for the outfield). My partner hears me yell, but decides to field the ball. He may never stop buying the beer.....

[blue23ll]

Even in FED ball, I still don't call time immediately. By rule, if you call balk the ball is dead. It's just too damn easy to get in the "Time,Balk" thing you will end up doing it during an OBR game and really become unpopular fast. 

[jjb]

Blue, respectfully, why not? In FED, the ball is dead after a balk. You don't kill it, the ball is hit, the runners start running, the overthrows start happening, and you have to re-set everything, you're going to hear about it. In FED, I'm yelling, I'm waving, I'm firing off bottle rockets, anything I can do to keep that pitcher from throwing that ball.

You just have to know what rules you're playing by and adjust accordingly. IMHO...

[Stk004]

1 hour ago, jjb said:

No Pitch. The ball is dead at the time of the pitch. Back up and start again.

Sorry, I meant with OBR in reference to the post I quoted. 

[jjb]

Same same. If he doesn't put the ball in play and everyone advances 1, it's a No Pitch....

(and it's not a Coach's Option).....

[LMSANS]

1 minute ago, jjb said:

Same same. If he doesn't put the ball in play and everyone advances 1, it's a No Pitch....

(and it's not a Coach's Option).....

If the runners all advance, then the balk is ignored.  The pitch happened and the count includes whatever you called that pitch.

[jjb]

+1. Thanks, LM. Slow coffee this am....

[lawump]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 10:52 PM, HuskerUmp22 said:

1. Plate Meeting Pregame: I go over normal stuff and then I noticed before the plate meeting all the players for the visiting team are outside the dugout swinging their bats. I tell the coaches that please only two swingers in between innings.

2. Bottom of 1st.  R1. Pitcher completely rolls through his set position. I raise my hands and call a balk. My partner doesn't call it.  We have R1 stealing and then an overthrow leading R1 to 3rd base. I run out and say, "Time. I have a balk." And I put the runner back at second.

3. 4th inning and 1 out R2. Batter hits a single, I have a play at the plate. Now R2 is clearly out but F2 tags him hard on the helmet. HTHC comes out complaining that his player got hit hard in the helmet and should not have been called out.

4. R2 1out. Steal play and my partner is in the A position.

5.. Bottom of 6th inning HT down 7-0. Bases loaded 1 out. Boarderline pitch that almost hits the batter. I did not think it hit him but the batter thought he got hit. I say no stay in the box. He ends up striking out. Btw I called strike 3 on probably 7 kids on their team. They were not aggressive. Next batter in same inning 3-1 pitch I call a lower strike that my partner said after the game he thought it was down. What I saw was a pitch that was just below the knee and the catcher's glove did not move down: Strike! The kid strikes out swinging to end the game.

1.  You are booger picking.  Why address this at the plate meeting?  Unless they're doing something unsportsmanlike (such as taunting) let it go.  You're just putting everyone in a bad mood and getting the game off to a bad start.  If it is an issue in the first inning...then address it then. 

I don't like to be confrontational at the plate meeting unless I absolutely have to be (which has happened exactly once: in pro ball at the plate meeting for game 2 of a doubleheader when I ran the manager for continuing to argue an issue that had arisen in game 1).  If I need to confront someone, I'll do it during the game for something they did (or are doing) during the game.  For example, and I have posted this before, in South Carolina high school baseball we are required to "stress sportsmanship" at the plate meeting.  I have witnessed enough plate meetings as the base umpire to hear plate umpires go on and on and on about "sportsmanship" such that it comes across as being confrontational and puts the coaches in a bad mood.  It is like the umpire is lecturing the head coaches.  I, on the other hand, literally say, "I am required to mention sportsmanship at the plate meeting.  I just did.  Now, coach take us around (and give the ground rules)."  I say it with a straight face and about 50% of the time the coaches start laughing out load.  It puts everyone at ease and gets the game off on a good foot.

2.  As posted above in this thread, just review the balk rule.  The PBUC manual quote is spot on for USSSA.

3.  Typical RAT behavior.  Just tell him it was not malicious contact and move on.  If he continues to argue, use your warn-restrict (if restrict is an option in USSSA)-eject steps.  BTW, if USSSA is using the FED malicious contact rule, if the defensive player commits malicious contact, the runner is still "out" or "safe" on the play...whatever the case may be.  So the coach's argument that his runner should be safe because of MC is wrong.  (See 2015 Casebook 8.3.3 Situation O)

4.  You know what you did wrong.  To be blunt, this is a gross miss and has cost your umpiring crew its credibility for the rest of the game.  But, don't feel bad.  In the early to mid 1990's (when I was a college student working in the Sports Information Department at an NCAA Division 1 school), when a lot of schools were going to three-man crews for all games there was the following situation:  R1, no outs.  R1 steals.  U1 is in "A" and U3 is in "D".  The play at second was a banger.  Guess who made the call?  PU. Three ejections (runner, head coach and assistant coach) followed.  That was NCAA Division 1.

5. HBP are a b!tch to call at any level.  Don't lose sleep over it.  As for the K3: were you consistently calling that pitch all game?  If so, then don't lose sleep over it.  If not, then you need to figure out why you missed that pitch.  Only you know if you were consistently calling that pitch. 

[noumpere]

51 minutes ago, LMSANS said:

If the runners all advance, then the balk is ignored.  The pitch happened and the count includes whatever you called that pitch.

NOT True (under OBR or NCAA).  The pitch is ignored (for the batter).

[basejester]

23 hours ago, maven said:

The OP's balk mechanics need work: don't raise your hands for OBR balks, as that's the signal to call time. Point at F1 and say, "That's a balk!" — preferably so loudly that he stops, and we can kill it and enforce the balk.

I disagree with what I think you're saying here.  The pitcher in the original post failed to come to a stop.  A pitcher hasn't failed to stop until he releases the ball.  The batter rightfully gets a shot at this pitch. 

It sounds like you prefer the Fed rule and want to arrange it so that OBR is effectively the same.  It isn't. 

[LMSANS]

1 hour ago, noumpere said:

NOT True (under OBR or NCAA).  The pitch is ignored (for the batter).

I sit corrected.