Dropped 3rd strike mechanics

[jjskitours]

Situation: with 1st base occupied and less than 2 outs, F2 drops a 3rd strike. Is there any solid source that says the plate umpire needs to declare "the batter's out". After all the F2 should know the rules and that the batter can't run. Is it just some form of common courtesy to let everyone know that the batter is out.

[ricka56]

We don't usually declare the batter out verbally, but at lower levels, I sometimes say it just to remind the catcher not to throw the ball into RF...maybe think about getting an out other than the one already counted. 

Some may say that this is unfairly helping the defense...I don't care...I want to see better baseball.

[Thunderheads]

If the bases are loaded and the batter tries to run for first to try and 'confuse' people, I'll say "batter's out" loud enough for the three of us to hear only ........other than that, I concur with Rick

[noumpere]

I think FED has a case play or interp on this exact play.  (Whether you view that as a "solid source" or not is up to you. )

 

There *used to be* a case play (8.4.1k) on this.  I see it in a 2005 book.  I don't see it in a 2012 book.  I didn't check in between.

 

With less than twp puts and R1 on first, B2 swings and misses strike three.  F2 drops the ball.  The coach of the team at bat yells at B2 to run to first base.  F2 overthrows first base, allowing R1 to reach third base.  RULING:  As soon as B2 starts to run to first base, the umpire shall forcefully announce that B2 is out (because of the third strike and first base being occupied),  The ball remains alive.  It is the responsibility of the defense to know the conditions that warrant the necessity of a play being made.

[maven]

34 minutes ago, noumpere said:

I think FED has a case play or interp on this exact play.  (Whether you view that as a "solid source" or not is up to you. )

I found this one, but it doesn't answer the question in the OP.

Quote

7.4.1 SITUATION A: With R1 on first, B2 has two strikes and swings at the next pitch. F2 drops the ball and fails to throw to F3 at first. There are (a) no outs or (b) two outs.

RULING: In (a), B2 is out because first base was occupied. In (b), B2 is safe at first if he reaches first before the half-inning ends or before all infielders leave the diamond. He is out if he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area.

 

[ZebraStripes]

So if all of the infielders haul tail to the dugout, he is still out?  Interesting.

[Umpirechick1]

@ZebraStripes, OP has less than 2 outs, so yes the batter is still out b/c 1B is occupied with less than 2 outs. If the infielders decide to "haul tail to the dugout" (is that a redneck term?) then the other runners would be free to advance at their own risk. But batter is still out. 

[ZebraStripes]

1 minute ago, Umpirechick1 said:

@ZebraStripes, OP has less than 2 outs, so yes the batter is still out b/c 1B is occupied with less than 2 outs. If the infielders decide to "haul tail to the dugout" (is that a redneck term?) then the other runners would be free to advance at their own risk. But batter is still out. 

In (b), B2 is safe at first if he reaches first before the half-inning ends or before all infielders leave the diamond. He is out if he gives up by entering the bench or dugout area.

what I was responding to 

of course it was a redneck term...cleaner than saying hauling ass.

[noumpere]

2 hours ago, ZebraStripes said:

So if all of the infielders haul tail to the dugout, he is still out?  Interesting.

If the runner can't figure out to advance before the fielders go to the dugout, he deserves to be out.

[jjskitours]

8 hours ago, noumpere said:

I think FED has a case play or interp on this exact play.  (Whether you view that as a "solid source" or not is up to you. )

 

There *used to be* a case play (8.4.1k) on this.  I see it in a 2005 book.  I don't see it in a 2012 book.  I didn't check in between.

 

With less than twp puts and R1 on first, B2 swings and misses strike three.  F2 drops the ball.  The coach of the team at bat yells at B2 to run to first base.  F2 overthrows first base, allowing R1 to reach third base.  RULING:  As soon as B2 starts to run to first base, the umpire shall forcefully announce that B2 is out (because of the third strike and first base being occupied),  The ball remains alive.  It is the responsibility of the defense to know the conditions that warrant the necessity of a play being made.

So noumpere I guess you are saying you opt for making the call "batter's out". I would consider a FED case play or interpretation a solid source. Can you provide such a case play or interpretation.

[ALStripes17]

So noumpere I guess you are saying you opt for making the call "batter's out". I would consider a FED case play or interpretation a solid source. Can you provide such a case play or interpretation.

That would be a mechanics situation... Not a rule book, case play, or interpretation issue.

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[jjskitours]

34 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

That would be a mechanics situation... Not a rule book, case play, or interpretation issue.

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Noumpere is the one that made reference to a FED casebook or interpretation in response to my OP

[clasonater]

8 hours ago, Umpirechick1 said:

@ZebraStripes, OP has less than 2 outs, so yes the batter is still out b/c 1B is occupied with less than 2 outs. If the infielders decide to "haul tail to the dugout" (is that a redneck term?) then the other runners would be free to advance at their own risk. But batter is still out. 

Got somethin against rednecks on these forums?

[Umpirechick1]

@clasonater... I hope not... I am one!!  GA girl who likes to hunt, fish, and shoot. I just don't chew!  

[clasonater]

1 hour ago, Umpirechick1 said:

@clasonater... I hope not... I am one!!  GA girl who likes to hunt, fish, and shoot. I just don't chew!  

[ALStripes17]

Noumpere is the one that made reference to a FED casebook or interpretation in response to my OP

And you quoted his edited post that included a case play from a past edition. What more would you like there?

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[noumpere]

11 hours ago, jjskitours said:

So noumpere I guess you are saying you opt for making the call "batter's out". I would consider a FED case play or interpretation a solid source. Can you provide such a case play or interpretation.

The play at the end of my previous post IS case 8.4.1K from 2005 (except for the typos that I made(

[ZebraStripes]

9 hours ago, Umpirechick1 said:

@clasonater... I hope not... I am one!!  GA girl who likes to hunt, fish, and shoot. I just don't chew!  

You don't drive a pick up truck though... I sold mine too so I have no room to talk.  

 

And @clasonater, you should meet her husband and the redneck theme is complete, especially if he has on a sleeveless shirt.

[jjskitours]

1 hour ago, ALStripes17 said:

And you quoted his edited post that included a case play from a past edition. What more would you like there?

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A copy of the Case Play would be nice if someone could excerpt it from the 2005 Case Book (8.4.1K) which I don't have. I guess based on the responses I can infer that it is optional and some umpires do and some don't elect to shout out "the batter's out" on a dropped 3rd strike when batter can't legally run.

 

[ALStripes17]

A copy of the Case Play would be nice if someone could excerpt it from the 2005 Case Book (8.4.1K) which I don't have. I guess based on the responses I can infer that it is optional and some umpires do and some don't elect to shout out "the batter's out" on a dropped 3rd strike when batter can't legally run.

 

It was posted as part of noumpere's edit in post #4. The post you quoted.

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[maven]

6 minutes ago, jjskitours said:

A copy of the Case Play would be nice if someone could excerpt it from the 2005 Case Book (8.4.1K) which I don't have. I guess based on the responses I can infer that it is optional and some umpires do and some don't elect to shout out "the batter's out" on a dropped 3rd strike when batter can't legally run.

One thing we see more in baseball than other sports (I also work football and basketball) is a weird kind of reverence for authority: it's not REALLY a rule until Wendelstedt pronounces on it; it's not REALLY a mechanic until it appears in the PBUC manual, etc.

The purpose of having standardized mechanics is twofold, with an additional third but less important reason.

The reason for having umpires at all is in order to rule on judgment calls: ball/strike, fair/foul, catch/no catch, safe/out. Good mechanics thus aim at two primary goals: (1) putting us in the best place, looking in the right place, to see what we need to see to make our calls, and (2) communicating those calls to all concerned clearly and in a timely manner.

That said, we have to adapt mechanics to our games and our abilities. Half the guys in my association cannot get to the 45' before a play at first base, so it is unreasonable to demand that. But they can get 25-30' down the line, so we encourage that rather than standing around the plate. So to some extent, we allow folks to "modify" mechanics to accommodate their abilities and, to a lesser extent, their preferences (point vs hammer for strikes, for instance).

Back to the case at hand: if the batter is out on strike 3, I have absolutely no problem with umpires communicating that status clearly and forcefully. (I actually say, "He's out!" not "batter's out" FWIW, but only if he starts to run.) It prevents a bunch of needless crap that tends to make the rest of the game a pain in the ass to officiate. It's a game management mechanic pursuant to the second overall goal of mechanics: communication of our calls. Preventive officiating communicates a call; coaching tells players what to do about it.

(The third reason for standardized mechanics is so that we all know what the hell our partners are doing out there.)

[jjskitours]

6 minutes ago, ALStripes17 said:

It was posted as part of noumpere's edit in post #4. The post you quoted.

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Grazie. Don't know how I missed it.

[BretMan]

If your mechanic is to verbally announce, "Batter out!", on every third strike, then it is inevitable that you are going to yell, "Batter out!" on a play where the batter isn't out (uncaught third strike) and is entitled to run. And you just told him he can't run...when he can. You're bound to have somebody mad at you when this one's over!

What I do is signal/call the strike, without saying, "Batter out". Then, only if the batter begins running when not entitled to will I forcefully announce, "Batter out! Batter out!".