What are your thoughts

[Guest tim]

Long time lurker here.

USSSA 18U. bottom 7, VT up by 8, less than 5 minutes before drop dead. R2 R3, 1 out. Swinging strike out on a decent breaking ball in the dirt, that the catcher picks. Partner has the dish, bangs the BR, and verbally says out. HT coach has BR head to 1st, asks for an appeal on the catch/no catch D3K. Clearly, whatever we decide is going to piss off someone. Partner and I get together and go with the out. What are the thoughts of the group on this? Do you reverse it and award the HT 1st? Or just eat the Sh** sammich?

[Replacematt]

Long time lurker here.

USSSA 18U. bottom 7, VT up by 8, less than 5 minutes before drop dead. R2 R3, 1 out. Swinging strike out on a decent breaking ball in the dirt, that the catcher picks. Partner has the dish, bangs the BR, and verbally says out. HT coach has BR head to 1st, asks for an appeal on the catch/no catch D3K. Clearly, whatever we decide is going to piss off someone. Partner and I get together and go with the out. What are the thoughts of the group on this? Do you reverse it and award the HT 1st? Or just eat the Sh** sammich?

What did the defense do during this?

[Guest Tim]

Defense went with the out call.

[maven]

I'm guessing the defense stopped playing because the BR was ruled out. Perhaps PU even killed it as the BR went to 1B?

You have 2 bad options: stick with the incorrect out call, or award the BR 1B. The BR struck out, so the least bad option seems to be sticking with the out call.

We might worry that anything you do at this point is protestable. Ruling the BR out seems to be a misapplication of the rule rather than an erroneous judgment; but awarding the BR 1B is also a misapplication of the rule. If both of 2 alternatives are protestable, then the protest is moot.

Stick with the out, play on.

[MooseLoop]

If PU had said "no catch" instead of "out", catcher who picked the ball probably would either have tagged BR or thrown BR out at first.  The out stands.  Since I am not pretty damn sure that runners would have advanced, leave them on their bases.

[grayhawk]

Worth noting here that this is something that should be pregamed.  If PU isn't sure if the pitch was caught, then before making any mechanic or verbal, he should look to BU.  If BU is sure that the pitch was caught, then he can give a signal such as a closed fist.  If he isn't sure it was caught, or is sure that it was uncaught, then he should move into position to make the call at first (in this case, from the C position, he should move towards the 1B side of the working area).

Using all of his senses (this is often heard and not seen), working as a team, observing the actions of both the BR and F2, and proper timing would have helped PU here.  Slow down and take in all available information before making a call.  There's no rush!

[ScubaUmp]

MMMMMM Tastes Good....

All joking aside. 

TIMING, TIMING, TIMING!!!!!

Pregame this. Always make Eye contact with your partner for additional information. 

If you had it in the dirt, give him the open hand, but remember, its your partners responsibility to look for the information.

You guys handled this as a crew and that, is never wrong. 

Good Job.

 

 

[Guest Tim]

Open hand was given by me to the PU indicating no catch. PU missed it. Partner and I have worked together for a long time. Explained it to the HT coach like a fair ball that is called foul. Just a SHI**Y situation for all, but its foul. He didn't lose his mind, and respected the call. I was just wondering what the community would do in this situation. Always looking to improve....

[ScubaUmp]

Yep, been to  SHI**Y town numerous times myself. Pretty sure I'll visit it again, I just keep working to not behind the wheel when I get there.

Tim, glad your not lurking anymore, keep working to improve and welcome.

 

Edited November 13, 2015 by ScubaUmp
duplicate word

[noumpere]

FED has a specific case on this where we get the out if that's the likely outcome had the correct call (PITCH NOT CAUGHT) been made.  Use this interp at other levels.

[Guest Tim]

@‌noumpire that's a great place to look. hadn't thought of that. However, I just looked at the 2015 NFHS case book, rule 6, 7, and 8. I do not see it. Can you let me know the case #?

[Guest Tim]

Just read the PBUC Section 5.12  guidelines for "\getting the play right" (pg 45, 46 in the 2012) . Looks like 4,5, and 6 explain this situation pretty well. thanks again for all of the help

[Rich Ives]

When a batter runs when he shouldn't and the defense makes a play we say "tough poop - should have known".

Why not the same here?

[scrounge]

When a batter runs when he shouldn't and the defense makes a play we say "tough poop - should have known".

Why not the same here?

Did the batter run when he shouldn't as a result of an umpire's command? If so, then it's a relevant analogy.

Since it's not, I don't think we can use the construct of punishing the side that screwed up. No one did except the PU. The least bad of the bad choices is to stick with the call.

[Rich Ives]

I was thinking more in the line of "should have known the situation". 

In the "run when he shouldn't" situation we contend that a failure to say "batter's out" (or whatever equivalent) ) does not excuse making a play on the batter because the catcher "should have known the situation".  I'm just suggesting that the declaration of out when it should not have been is just a mirror image and the catcher still should have known the situation.

 

[Richvee]

I was thinking more in the line of "should have known the situation". 

In the "run when he shouldn't" situation we contend that a failure to say "batter's out" (or whatever equivalent) ) does not excuse making a play on the batter because the catcher "should have known the situation".  I'm just suggesting that the declaration of out when it should not have been is just a mirror image and the catcher still should have known the situation.

 

On plays involving D3K when we say "the defense should have known better", are plays where D3K's  occur with 1st base occupied, and less that 2 outs. i.e. Plays that don't have to do with the umpire calling a drop or catch correctly/incorrectly.

R1, no outs, swinging strike 3 ball gets away from F2. Everybody knows F2 didn't catch it. Everybody knows batter swung and missed. Batter takes off for 1st. In this example, tough luck if F2 throws it down the RF line. He should have known better. His error wasn't the result of making a play because of a call that was incorrect. In situations like this, at lower levels especially PU may reiterate "Batter's out", but it's not mandatory and F2's actions on such a play is his responsibility. 

[Rich Ives]

It could be my catcher. It could be my batter.  I still say "should know the situation"  should apply.  If you know when the batter can't run you therefore must know when the batter can run. There's no "maybe" situation involved so there should be no confusion.

[Richvee]

It could be my catcher. It could be my batter.  I still say "should know the situation"  should apply.  If you know when the batter can't run you therefore must know when the batter can run. There's no "maybe" situation involved so there should be no confusion.

Ok,  I think I get what you're saying....In the OP, F2 knew he short hopped strike three, he should tag BR even though PU called batter out. I can see that, but I can also see you as a coach using either side of this coin to fit your needs.

[ricka56]

I was thinking more in the line of "should have known the situation". 

In the "run when he shouldn't" situation we contend that a failure to say "batter's out" (or whatever equivalent) ) does not excuse making a play on the batter because the catcher "should have known the situation".  I'm just suggesting that the declaration of out when it should not have been is just a mirror image and the catcher still should have known the situation.

But what if F2 can not know the situation. There was an infamous play altering a 2005 ALCS game that Doug Eddings had. I've seen the U3k/C3K on replay dozens of times and I still don't know if the pitch was caught or not. There are times when a pitch hits mitt and ground simultaneously and there is no way F2 can know if it is a catch or not. He has to rely on PU to give a definitive call. Once that call is made (right or wrong) it usually is not fixable. 

[Guest Tim]

Thanks to all for the responses. I have been lurking here long enough to know I am not going to get into a war of words with some of the members here.

 

This was a coach that I have dealt with all summer. He has always been respectful to the umpires at his games. Even when he does not agree with the calls. In this situation, my partner and I treated him with the same respect that he gave us. He was given the explanation at the time, and while not happy, he went back to the coaching box and we finished the game no problem. I had him again this past weekend, and no issues at all. This, (like many other situations) has made me a better umpire. I spent time in multiple casebooks/manuals this week making sure I got it right, or if not, what the call should have been. I settled on the NFHS casebook 10.2.3 Situation H, I. Had the ball gotten away from the catcher, and in my judgment reached 1st, I would have put him there.

Now I know a rule cite for the next time it happens.

 

and for those who wondered, that $hit sammie was delicious....................