A Primer: Simultaneous Tag & Touch, aka, Does the tie go to the runner?

[grayhawk]

As a complete and worthless waste of time, I posted the following on a Facebook umpire group and I just couldn't let die there.  For your reading enjoyment (if you like this kind of thing), I present you with the first (that I know of) comprehensive reading and interpretation of whether or not the "tie goes to the runner" under OBR, FED, and NCAA.  If anyone wants to submit it to Referee magazine in their own name (and kill their umpiring career right along with it), please accept this post as my permission to do so.  Without further ado, I present:

A Primer:  Simultaneous Tag & Touch, aka Does the tie go to the runner?

Bear with me folks. I understand all of the talk about how the tie goes to the umpire, about how outs make the game move along, about the fact that there really are no ties, and about the difference between the speed of light as compared to the speed of sound. Please do not interpret the following to be in opposition to any of those principles. What I am about to post is merely a LITERAL reading of the 3 major rule sets. In each case, I am going to post the actual rule that governs when a BATTER-RUNNER is out, and when FORCED RUNNERS (not the batter-runner) are out. All 3 rule sets have separate and distinct rules for both situations. The key word in each case is the word, "BEFORE." If something has to happen BEFORE something else, then it is logical to conclude that if those two things are perceived to have happened simultaneously, then BEFORE has not occurred and the resulting condition has not been met.

I understand that I post this at great risk to myself, and to those I call my friends and family. Forgive me.

OBR:

6.05 A batter is out when-

(j): After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat batter-runner.***

7.08 Any runner is out when-

(e): He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat runner.***

FED:

8-4-1...The batter-runner is out when he:

f. after a dropped third strike (see 8-4-1e) or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the fielder touches first base; or if any fielder, while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat batter-runner.***

8-4-2...Any runner is out when he:

j. fails to reach the next base before a fielder either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after the runner has been forced from the base he occupied because the batter became a runner (with the ball in play) when other runners were on first base, or on first and second, or on first, second and third.

***grayhawk Comment: Runner must beat ball.***

NCAA:

7-11 A batter is out when:

b. After a third strike not caught or after the player hits a fair ball, the individual or first base is tagged before reaching that base

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat batter-runner.***

8-5 A runner is out when:

j. The individual fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags the runner or the base after the runner has been forced to advance because the batter became a runner

***grayhawk Comment: Runner must beat ball.***

CONCLUSIONS:

In OBR, the language is consistent that the defense must beat both the batter-runner, and all other forced runners to the base with the ball. If I recall correctly, the language in 7.08(e) was changed to match 6.05(j) a few years ago to achieve this consistency.

In FED and NCAA, the defense must beat the batter-runner to first with the ball, but all other forced runners must beat the defense to their forced bases.

Now, for the love of the game, remember that there are no ties, and just go out there and umpire!

[ZebraStripes]

There's no...There's no tying...There's no tying in baseball

[ElkOil]

Eh, before... after... bang the out.

Interesting and thought-provoking analysis, despite my snarky comment.  

[JaxRolo]

I have an out

[johnnyg08]

How do they know it's a tie?  We don't poll the audience.  Beat the ball and you're safe, otherwise you are out and I get to decide.  (or my partner)

[ricka56]

Tie breaker (got to call it something) goes to whoever screwed up the least.

[Jimurray]

Interestingly, a tie goes to the fielder on an appeal in OBR and FED. Haven't checked NCAA. So a runner that has corrected his leaving early can actually be out.

[umpstu]

As a complete and worthless waste of time, I posted the following on a Facebook umpire group and I just couldn't let die there.  For your reading enjoyment (if you like this kind of thing), I present you with the first (that I know of) comprehensive reading and interpretation of whether or not the "tie goes to the runner" under OBR, FED, and NCAA.  If anyone wants to submit it to Referee magazine in their own name (and kill their umpiring career right along with it), please accept this post as my permission to do so.  Without further ado, I present:

A Primer:  Simultaneous Tag & Touch, aka Does the tie go to the runner?

Bear with me folks. I understand all of the talk about how the tie goes to the umpire, about how outs make the game move along, about the fact that there really are no ties, and about the difference between the speed of light as compared to the speed of sound. Please do not interpret the following to be in opposition to any of those principles. What I am about to post is merely a LITERAL reading of the 3 major rule sets. In each case, I am going to post the actual rule that governs when a BATTER-RUNNER is out, and when FORCED RUNNERS (not the batter-runner) are out. All 3 rule sets have separate and distinct rules for both situations. The key word in each case is the word, "BEFORE." If something has to happen BEFORE something else, then it is logical to conclude that if those two things are perceived to have happened simultaneously, then BEFORE has not occurred and the resulting condition has not been met.

I understand that I post this at great risk to myself, and to those I call my friends and family. Forgive me.

OBR:

6.05 A batter is out when-

(j): After a third strike or after he hits a fair ball, he or first base is tagged before he touches first base

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat batter-runner.***

7.08 Any runner is out when-

(e): He or the next base is tagged before he touches the next base, after he has been forced to advance by reason of the batter becoming a runner.

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat runner.***

FED:

8-4-1...The batter-runner is out when he:

f. after a dropped third strike (see 8-4-1e) or a fair hit, if the ball held by any fielder touches the batter before the fielder touches first base; or if any fielder, while holding the ball in his grasp, touches first base or touches first base with the ball before the batter-runner touches first base

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat batter-runner.***

8-4-2...Any runner is out when he:

j. fails to reach the next base before a fielder either tags the runner out or holds the ball while touching such base, after the runner has been forced from the base he occupied because the batter became a runner (with the ball in play) when other runners were on first base, or on first and second, or on first, second and third.

***grayhawk Comment: Runner must beat ball.***

NCAA:

7-11 A batter is out when:

b. After a third strike not caught or after the player hits a fair ball, the individual or first base is tagged before reaching that base

***grayhawk Comment: Ball must beat batter-runner.***

8-5 A runner is out when:

j. The individual fails to reach the next base before a fielder tags the runner or the base after the runner has been forced to advance because the batter became a runner

***grayhawk Comment: Runner must beat ball.***

CONCLUSIONS:

In OBR, the language is consistent that the defense must beat both the batter-runner, and all other forced runners to the base with the ball. If I recall correctly, the language in 7.08(e) was changed to match 6.05(j) a few years ago to achieve this consistency.

In FED and NCAA, the defense must beat the batter-runner to first with the ball, but all other forced runners must beat the defense to their forced bases.

Now, for the love of the game, remember that there are no ties, and just go out there and umpire!

​The runner has to beat the ball.

[umpstu]

Interestingly, a tie goes to the fielder on an appeal in OBR and FED. Haven't checked NCAA. So a runner that has corrected his leaving early can actually be out.

​Where do you find this at?

 

[Rich Ives]

​The runner has to beat the ball.

​Depends on the situation and the relevant rule. May or may not be true.

[Jimurray]

 

[Jimurray]

​Where do you find this at?

 

​In the rulebook, litterally. In the unlickely event that you say the wrong thing beat the wrong thing(edited to add: actually, I think the the only thing that could get you in trouble with @Rich Ives is if you say the wrong thing didn't beat the wrong thing) when asked by a coach and he protests you should know this. If you're worried about it start reading.

Edited July 3, 2015 by Jimurray

[johnnyg08]

Again, how do they know it's a tie?  

"I had the ball beating you"

For that matter, none of our eyes are good enough to know for 100% certainty that it's a tie.  

Make your call, safe or out and never, ever say "tie goes to the ______________"

 

 

[grayhawk]

Guys, I posted this as a purely academic exercise. It's not necessarily meant to be applied on the field. Just judge ball beat runner or runner beat ball and make the call accordingly.

[jpperez14]

I've heard this from other guys and I completely agree on it. Bang-Bang calls, are pretty much when arguments for the "tie goes to the runner, or fielder, blah blah" correct?

 

We discussed it and say you have a fielder lays out and makes a beautiful play on the ball, turns and throws and its a whacker, give the fielder the benefit.
Say you have a can of corn and the fielder bobbles it, boots it, or just flat out makes a routine play much harder, give the base runner the benefit.

Anything in between, you use your best judgement.

granted I know this is pure judgement and we should always make the calls to the best of our ability and be correct as much as possible, but just something that seems to work well for me.

What do you think?

 

[Rich Ives]

I've heard this from other guys and I completely agree on it. Bang-Bang calls, are pretty much when arguments for the "tie goes to the runner, or fielder, blah blah" correct?

 

We discussed it and say you have a fielder lays out and makes a beautiful play on the ball, turns and throws and its a whacker, give the fielder the benefit.
Say you have a can of corn and the fielder bobbles it, boots it, or just flat out makes a routine play much harder, give the base runner the benefit.

Anything in between, you use your best judgement.

granted I know this is pure judgement and we should always make the calls to the best of our ability and be correct as much as possible, but just something that seems to work well for me.

What do you think?

 

​There are no style points in baseball. Call what happens.

[Larry in TN]

There's no...There's no tying...There's no tying in baseball

​Determining whether or not it was a tie is a judgement call.  Can't argue judgement calls.

 

[johnnyg08]

​Determining whether or not it was a tie is a judgement call.  Can't argue judgement calls.

 

​Right...it's no different than any other safe/out call.  

They think safe, the other team thinks out. 

Just never say "tie goes to the runner" 

I had the ball beating him or he beat the ball. 

 

[noumpere]

 

What do you think?

 

​Very old school and has mostly gone away.

 

Someone is likely videoing it, and even if it's not the same quality as the MLB replays, you'd be best served by doing your best to get it right.