B Position with 2 outs

[GPblue]

Had a partner do this to me last week.  Didn't know if this has been discussed in other threads, but looking for some advice.  Adult wood bat league, Runner at second 2 out.  R1 takes walking lead and steals third.  I am UIC and my partner is in the B position.  My partner takes a small jab step and calls the runner out.  IMO I feel the runner was safe.  The manager, who has been around baseball long enough to have some grasp as to where umpires position themselves on the field feels my partner was out of position.  In my post game my partner tells me that there are several clinics and groups that are training with runners anywhere with two outs, you work from the B.  He defended his call and said that he is getting the same angle from the B as with the C.  Can anyone give some information on this?  IMO I felt it looked extremely sloppy and out of position to sell the call, which may have gotten the manager off his back some.

[Replacematt]

It is a method. I don't do it, but there is a school of thought that goes with this.

Also, it's R2. We try to avoid FED nomenclature because it's overly confusing.

Edited June 30, 2015 by Matt

[maven]

Agree with Matt. C gets you 2 steps closer on this play, which is rare. Those who use the mechanic are closer to the much more common third out at 1B.

It's a step or 3 either direction. I can't get myself to think that it's "extremely" anything.

I've seen umpires who hustle, use good timing, and a crisp mechanic who could sell the out at 3B from RF. I've also seen umpires who are slow, rush their calls, and look slovenly who could make a call look crappy if they were right on top of it. For me, these variables have more to do with how the call "looks" than being 15 feet one way or another at the pitch.

[ricka56]

I think if BU was in true 'B' they might be able to get a decent angle on a 3B steal, but every person I see go to other side with R2 usually are in deep 'B', don't adjust on a 3B steal and end up with a lousy angle on the play...and I think R2 always look out on a close play from this bad position (as in the OP).

In my opinion people who go to deep 'B' with R2 either have a mobility issue (can't get to the right side for the banger at 1B from 'C') or are lazy (won't get to the right side for the banger at 1B from 'C').

[Replacematt]

Deep B is not permissible in 2-man.

[ricka56]

Deep B is not permissible in 2-man.

yet, I see it all the time. Not that the play in this pic has anything to do with this thread, but I often see BU making that 3B steal call from this position.

 

[JaxRolo]

I've never heard or seen of R2 only with BU at B.

with R3 or R2 and R3 with 2 it's then yes go to B

[alan2703]

I may cheat towards the B position if there are 2 outs and runner on third to try and get a better look at first, and slide towards B for play at first. But I would not do it with runner on second due to a steal attempt, pass ball etc. .

[GPblue]

That's what i thought Jax.  I never heard of that with just R2 (sorry for runner confusion in OP). I would have been ok with him working towards the play or at least working towards to pitchers mound to get the right angle. But a jab step and a peek isn't going to cut it in the league we were doing.

[RichMSN]

I guess I'm just old fashioned.  I'm in B with R1 or R1+R3.  A with the bases empty.  Every other situation I'm in C.  And there is no deep anything in 2-man.

[catsbackr]

I think your partner was confused.

[MidAmUmp]

No reputable clinic is teaching to move to B regardless of the situation if there are 2 outs.

I'm fine with moving to B with 2 outs if there is R3 only and a RHB, otherwise, stay in C.

[kstrunk]

I've been pondering this recently as well, as I had a partner shifting to 'B' with 2 outs. But just the other day, while I was BU, standing in 'C' with R3 and 2 out, I thought, maybe I should shift over to 'B' like my more experienced partner of another game???(Note also, if I'm not mistaken, PIAA wants us in 'B' in this scenario) I decided to stick with the manuals and stay in 'C'. Wouldn't you know the catcher threw down to 3rd behind the runner!!!! Could I get that call in 'B'? I suppose. But I was right on top of it, angle and all, and the OC afterward complimented my positioning, not just on that play, but others in the same game, even though his guy was toast on that one. Why anyone would argue with the mechanics manuals is beyond me! 

[GPblue]

And that is what i was trying to say to my partner.  Perception is reality.  You may be out of position, but if you can sell that you worked for a good position of making the call, you are less likely to get a reda$$ come after you.  The example I always give is when you have F.P.S.R. in a game.  You make have made your call just into the grass from home plate, but you are still moving and announce your call walking towards the mound and by the time you grab teams attention away from their eyes at 1st, you look as if you are in the middle of the diamond making that call.  Sorry to get off topic.

[lawump]

There is a reason why the MiLB two-man mechanics manual and the CCA mechanics manual (the two highest levels of baseball that use 2-man umpiring crews) have the base umpire in "B" with R1 only or R1 & R3 and in "C" for everything else.  Furthermore, neither manual has the base umpire changing his initial position based on the number of outs in the inning.

Additionally, Deep "B" (or Deep "C") is never acceptable in a two-man crew, period. 

There is also a reason that the times when an umpire should be in "B" and the times when an umpire should be in "C" have not changed in the 18-years since I went to umpire school.

And that's all I have to say about this topic.

Edited July 1, 2015 by lawump

[Jimurray]

There is a reason why the MiLB two-man mechanics manual and the CCA mechanics manual (the two highest levels of baseball that use 2-man umpiring crews) have the base umpire in "B" with R1 only or R1 & R3 and in "C" for everything else.  Furthermore, neither manual has the base umpire changing his initial position based on the number of outs in the inning.

Additionally, Deep "B" (or Deep "C") is never acceptable in a two-man crew, period. 

There is also a reason that the times when an umpire should be in "B" and the times when an umpire should be in "C" have not changed in the 18-years since I went to umpire school.

And that's all I have to say about this topic.

​NFHS also uses the same positioning as CCA and MiLB. Wonder what manual doesn't?

[UmpJeff]

No reputable clinic is teaching to move to B regardless of the situation if there are 2 outs.

I'm fine with moving to B with 2 outs if there is R3 only and a RHB, otherwise, stay in C.

​I was told by Jim Jackson this past weekend that whenever there are 2 out and R3 or R2 and R3, I needed to be in "C"...

[ZebraStripes]

Related question:

R2 and R3 with infield playing in.  BU positioning ?  

 

I was thinking get deep (Deep C) but @lawump's statement had me wondering if that was correct.  

[GPblue]

Related question:

R2 and R3 with infield playing in.  BU positioning ?  

 

I was thinking get deep (Deep C) but @lawump's statement had me wondering if that was correct.  

​I think in this case it has to do if you feel pressure of them up your back.  If that's the case, you need to adjust to them.  Most guys I know that can hustle and move quick enough will play in normal B, C. Me, personally, will adjust to the middle infielders and work from the cutout and then bust my butt into the working area for a play at first if that is where the ball is taking me.

[noumpere]

Related question:

R2 and R3 with infield playing in.  BU positioning ?  

 

I was thinking get deep (Deep C) but @lawump's statement had me wondering if that was correct.  

​Some umpires just move closer to the plate in C, or stay in regular C.

I move to deep B.

[Jimurray]

Related question:

R2 and R3 with infield playing in.  BU positioning ?  

 

I was thinking get deep (Deep C) but @lawump's statement had me wondering if that was correct.  

Deep C is close but I think PBUC actually says "slightly behind the SS and 8-10 feet to the SS left."

[umpire_scott]

I also was told in 3-man if there are two outs regardless of the runners U2 will move to A.  So with just R2, normally U3 would be in "D", if there were two outs U3 would move to "C" and U2 would go to "A" instead of "B".  While I think it makes more sense than the OP re-positioning, I still think I can make a better call at first base from "B", then I can for a tag at third from "C". 

[Replacematt]

I also was told in 3-man if there are two outs regardless of the runners U2 will move to A.  So with just R2, normally U3 would be in "D", if there were two outs U3 would move to "C" and U2 would go to "A" instead of "B".  While I think it makes more sense than the OP re-positioning, I still think I can make a better call at first base from "B", then I can for a tag at third from "C". 

You mean U1 instead of U2?

[umpire_scott]

You mean U1 instead of U2?

I mean the first base umpire.  I assumed plate would be U1, first base would be U2 and third base would be U3?  Wrong designations?  I don't work much 3-man.

[Replacematt]

I mean the first base umpire.  I assumed plate would be U1, first base would be U2 and third base would be U3?  Wrong designations?  I don't work much 3-man.

Umpires are always designated based on position.

PU

PU and BU

PU, U1, and U3

PU, U1, U2, and U3

PU, U1, U2, U3, ULF, URF