DH Re-Entry

[Guest Matt]

Quick question prior to a postseason game tomorrow evening. 

DH is hitting for F9. 

DH reaches base and F9 enters as a pinch runner

3 innings later F9 comes up to bat and the player who started at DH re-enters to hit 

He reaches base again, and F9 re-enters to run and play defense for the rest of the game

Is this legal per NFHS rules?

[Cav]

Quick answer: yep.

[ElkOil]

If the DH re-entered to hit as a DH, no.  

FED 3-1-4:

The role of the designated hitter is terminated for the remainder of the game when: a. the defensive player, or any previous defensive player for whom the designated hitter batted, subsequently bats, pinch-hits or pinch-runs for the designated hitter; or b. the designated hitter or any previous designated hitter assumes a defensive position. 

[goody14]

The "role" is terminated but the player is still a starter with re-entry rights. Then, once original F9 comes out, he can also re-enter.

OP is legal.

[Jimurray]

If the DH re-entered to hit as a DH, no.  

FED 3-1-4:

The role of the designated hitter is terminated for the remainder of the game when: a. the defensive player, or any previous defensive player for whom the designated hitter batted, subsequently bats, pinch-hits or pinch-runs for the designated hitter; or b. the designated hitter or any previous designated hitter assumes a defensive position. 

The role is terminated but the player who was the DH has re-entry rights as a starter. 

[noumpere]

Quick question prior to a postseason game tomorrow evening. 

DH is hitting for F9. 

DH reaches base and F9 enters as a pinch runner DH is out once

3 innings later F9 comes up to bat and the player who started at DH re-enters to hit F9 is out once; DH has re-entered once

He reaches base again, and F9 re-enters to run and play defense for the rest of the game DH is out twice (done for the game); F9 has re-entered once

Is this legal per NFHS rules?

​Just trying to clarify why it's legal, given the confusion above

[Guest]

I posed the original question, and I'm confident the original DH can re-enter to hit. He would technically be entering the game as the right fielder at that point. My main concern is: can F9 re-enter to run should the original DH reach base a second time? 

Here's my dilemma, the guy I want to DH has a bum hamstring and can't run, but he's my best option to hit. Just for clarification on this: 

1.) Bob is the starting DH and hitting for Jim who is starting in RF

2.) Bob reaches base and Jim enters to run 

3.) 3 innings later Jim comes to bat, and Bob re-enters to hit

4.) Bob once again reaches base and Jim re-enters to run

This is what I'll be doing if my DH reaches base twice. Is it legal?

[ElkOil]

I posed the original question, and I'm confident the original DH can re-enter to hit. He would technically be entering the game as the right fielder at that point. My main concern is: can F9 re-enter to run should the original DH reach base a second time? 

Here's my dilemma, the guy I want to DH has a bum hamstring and can't run, but he's my best option to hit. Just for clarification on this: 

1.) Bob is the starting DH and hitting for Jim who is starting in RF

2.) Bob reaches base and Jim enters to run 

3.) 3 innings later Jim comes to bat, and Bob re-enters to hit

4.) Bob once again reaches base and Jim re-enters to run

This is what I'll be doing if my DH reaches base twice. Is it legal?

​Once #2 happens, you've satisfied the requirement in 3-1-4a, therefore Bob cannot re-enter to hit for Jim in #3 because the role of the DH has been terminated when Jim pinch ran for Bob.  If I understand this scenario correctly.  Or any of this correctly.

[Jimurray]

​Once #2 happens, you've satisfied the requirement in 3-1-4a, therefore Bob cannot re-enter to hit for Jim in #3 because the role of the DH has been terminated when Jim pinch ran for Bob.  If I understand this scenario correctly.  Or any of this correctly.

Do you understand the role is terminated but the player can re-enter? There is more than just 3-1-4a to reference.

3.1.4 SITUATION C:

F4, for whom the DH is batting, pinch hits or pinch runs for the DH.

RULING: The DH position is eliminated for the remainder of the game. However, the starting DH could re-enter as a player but not in the role of DH. If he does re-enter, he must re-enter in the same position in the batting order, replacing F4.

Edited May 27, 2015 by Jimurray

[ElkOil]

Do you understand the role is terminated but the player can re-enter? There is more than just 3-1-4a to reference.

​I do.  The way I read the post was that Bob came back in to DH for Jim.

[Jimurray]

Our guest already knows that Bob, the player who was the DH, can re-enter. ElkOil added some confusion to that.
Jim can also re-enter once to run for Bob

[maven]

I posed the original question, and I'm confident the original DH can re-enter to hit. He would technically be entering the game as the right fielder at that point. My main concern is: can F9 re-enter to run should the original DH reach base a second time? 

Here's my dilemma, the guy I want to DH has a bum hamstring and can't run, but he's my best option to hit. Just for clarification on this: 

1.) Bob is the starting DH and hitting for Jim who is starting in RF

2.) Bob reaches base and Jim enters to run 

3.) 3 innings later Jim comes to bat, and Bob re-enters to hit

4.) Bob once again reaches base and Jim re-enters to run

This is what I'll be doing if my DH reaches base twice. Is it legal?

​No, he would not "technically" be re-entering as the right-fielder, he would be resuming his spot in the lineup. We don't care where you put them in the field.

If your DH and F9 occupy the same spot in the lineup — one on offense, one on defense — then they are both starters and both have re-entry privileges.

At your step 2 above, Jim entering to run ends the role of the DH, and Bob is out of the game. Jim entering is NOT his re-entry, since he was never out of the game.

At step 3, Bob is re-entering, and Jim is out of the game.

At step 4, Jim re-enters, Bob is out of the game and done for the day.

Legal.

[noumpere]

​Once #2 happens, you've satisfied the requirement in 3-1-4a, therefore Bob cannot re-enter to hit for Jim in #3 because the role of the DH has been terminated when Jim pinch ran for Bob.  If I understand this scenario correctly.  Or any of this correctly.

​I think your confusion is that Bob (the original DH) is NOT reentering "to hit for Jim AS THE DH."  He's reentering "to hit for Jim AS A PINCH HITTER."  If he was re-entering as the DH, then that would not be allowed (because the role of the DH is terminated), and even if it were then Jim would not be out of the lineup.

 

When he comes in as a PH, it's just like any other person coming in as a PH -- Bob is now (back) in the lineup; Jim is out for the first time.  So, Jim can reenter as a runner (and Bob has left the game twice so  Bob can no longer participate in the game).

[ElkOil]

​I think your confusion is that Bob (the original DH) is NOT reentering "to hit for Jim AS THE DH."  He's reentering "to hit for Jim AS A PINCH HITTER."  If he was re-entering as the DH, then that would not be allowed (because the role of the DH is terminated), and even if it were then Jim would not be out of the lineup.

 

When he comes in as a PH, it's just like any other person coming in as a PH -- Bob is now (back) in the lineup; Jim is out for the first time.  So, Jim can reenter as a runner (and Bob has left the game twice so  Bob can no longer participate in the game).

​ Okay, it's as I thought.  I was apparently mis-understanding the OP.  I'll shut up now.

Sorry, everyone, for introducing confusion!

Edited May 27, 2015 by ElkOil

[Guest]

Just a follow up to this question. I opted to present the possible scenario to the umpires at the home plate meeting prior to tonight's game. They said it was not a legal substitution. They went so far as to say that if I bring F9 in to run for the DH, then the DH may not re-enter that game at all. Per my understanding of case book that is absolutely incorrect. 

[johnnyg08]

As you describe, they are absolutely incorrect.  As you describe, they do not understand the reentry rule. 

[Jimurray]

Unable to quote you due to my antique IPad. They are wrong you are right. Possible ramifications: you did the sub and they ruled incorrectly - protested if allowed in your state, otherwise, your effed but your state might allow a rules missaplication report as TX does. Then you would get an apology.
You didn't use the sub. If your state allows a rules missaplication report and you reported it then you would get an apology.
As evidenced by ElkOil, what seems to be a simple rule, clarified by casebook examples, cannot be understood by some.

[Richvee]

Just a follow up to this question. I opted to present the possible scenario to the umpires at the home plate meeting prior to tonight's game. They said it was not a legal substitution. They went so far as to say that if I bring F9 in to run for the DH, then the DH may not re-enter that game at all. Per my understanding of case book that is absolutely incorrect. 

​Major pet peeve. Umpires that do not know the rules. Makes a good umpire's job harder. 

[ElkOil]

Unable to quote you due to my antique IPad. They are wrong you are right. Possible ramifications: you did the sub and they ruled incorrectly - protested if allowed in your state, otherwise, your effed but your state might allow a rules missaplication report as TX does. Then you would get an apology.
You didn't use the sub. If your state allows a rules missaplication report and you reported it then you would get an apology.
As evidenced by ElkOil, what seems to be a simple rule, clarified by casebook examples, cannot be understood by some.
 

​Uhhhmmmm...?    

I understand the rule.  I was confused by the scenario.

[noumpere]

Unable to quote you due to my antique IPad. They are wrong you are right. Possible ramifications: you did the sub and they ruled incorrectly - protested if allowed in your state, otherwise, your effed but your state might allow a rules missaplication report as TX does. 
 

​Another option, depending on how umpires are assigned in your area, would be to contact the local assigner or association.  Or, an umpire you know who is good with the rules and has some influence over others.

 

None of which, I recognize, helps you in "tonight's" game.

[johnnyg08]

Unfortunately this is something that you're going to have to get used to.

In many areas there are far more guys who think they know what they're doing as opposed to guys who actually know what they're doing.

Communicating the misapplication of the rule to the local assigning association in a clear, professional manner is probably the best way to drive change locally...with the understanding that most of the umpires who receive the email about the clarification won't read it.  

[Guest]

I contacted well respected umpires in my area beforehand to get their opinion on the matter. All 5 of them gave me the green light. However, when I presented that to the umpires last night they said there's no way those guys said that. They said it will be addressed first thing next year, does me no good tonight!

[Guest]

Quick question prior to a postseason game tomorrow evening. 

DH is hitting for F9. 

DH reaches base and F9 enters as a pinch runner

3 innings later F9 comes up to bat and the player who started at DH re-enters to hit 

He reaches base again, and F9 re-enters to run and play defense for the rest of the game

Is this legal per NFHS rules?

I know this has been explained, but step by step;

The DH and F9 are both starters with reentry privileges.

​When F9 runs for the DH, the role of the DH is terminated.  We are down to 9 players.  The  DH is out of the game and can reenter.  F9 has not been out of the game.

When the DH reenters to hit, F9 is now out of the game, but can reenter.

When F9 enters to run, the DH is done for the game.

Nothing illegal has happened.

[maven]

I know this has been explained, but step by step;

The DH and F9 are both starters with reentry privileges.

​When F9 runs for the DH, the role of the DH is terminated.  We are down to 9 players.  The  DH is out of the game and can reenter.  F9 has not been out of the game.

When the DH reenters to hit, F9 is now out of the game, but can reenter.

When F9 enters to run, the DH is done for the game.

Nothing illegal has happened.

​I wish I had written that.

Oh wait. I did.

[noumpere]

​I wish I had written that.

Oh wait. I did.

​And I wish I had written that.

[maven]

​And I wish I had written that.

​Don't worry, you will.