R3 and R1 Tag up with 1 out

[Rick REBEL]

Good Day,

 

   My question, R3 and R1, 1 Out. BR hits fly ball to outfield which  is legally

 caught; 2 OUTS. R3 Tags up and scores. Defensive appeal that R1 left bag too early, and R1 is declared OUT for the 3rd OUT. Now does the run count??? Thank you in advance, Rick

[ALStripes17]

Good Day,

My question, R3 and R1, 1 Out. BR hits fly ball to outfield which is legally

caught; 2 OUTS. R3 Tags up and scores. Defensive appeal that R1 left bag too early, and R1 is declared OUT for the 3rd OUT. Now does the run count??? Thank you in advance, Rick

This would be an appeal play and not a force play.

Did R3 score before the out on R1 was made? If yes, then the run counts. If no, then no run.

This is what umpires call a 'time play'

[Richvee]

answered..(yet again) Lock it up. 

[JaxRolo]

Yes it scores. Simple answer.

[Rick REBEL]

Ok, thanks gentlemen. I understand that it's not a force play. An appeal at 1st - R1 that is declared out for the 3rd out of inning. I do not understand why it would be called a "timing play"; it's not like R1 was tagged like in a run down. So should R3"s run count? I've looked in a few books , but cannot find it. Would this be what's  called an interpretation kind of thing. I'm lost, thanks to everyone that responded......Ricky

[spiritump]

Ok, thanks gentlemen. I understand that it's not a force play. An appeal at 1st - R1 that is declared out for the 3rd out of inning. I do not understand why it would be called a "timing play"; it's not like R1 was tagged like in a run down. So should R3"s run count? I've looked in a few books , but cannot find it. Would this be what's  called an interpretation kind of thing. I'm lost, thanks to everyone that responded......Ricky

it is called a timing play because the 3rd out of the inning occurred after the run scored(the time of the run came before the time of the 3rd out)

[Replacematt]

Ok, thanks gentlemen. I understand that it's not a force play. An appeal at 1st - R1 that is declared out for the 3rd out of inning. I do not understand why it would be called a "timing play"; it's not like R1 was tagged like in a run down. So should R3"s run count? I've looked in a few books , but cannot find it. Would this be what's  called an interpretation kind of thing. I'm lost, thanks to everyone that responded......Ricky

 

A time play is a play in which the timing of the two acts of the final out being made and the run scoring are relevant to whether the run should count. Every play is a time play unless it falls under one of the exceptions (4.09a) in how a third out is made (a force out, an out made by a batter-runner before legally acquiring first, or a successful appeal on a runner preceding the scoring runner.) 

 

Keep in mind that there are multiple situations in which these exceptions can occur; for example, a fly out or a putout at first both fulfill the exception of a batter-runner making the first out before legally acquiring first.

[Guest dash riprock]

Ok, thanks gentlemen. I understand that it's not a force play. An appeal at 1st - R1 that is declared out for the 3rd out of inning. I do not understand why it would be called a "timing play"; it's not like R1 was tagged like in a run down. So should R3"s run count? I've looked in a few books , but cannot find it. Would this be what's  called an interpretation kind of thing. I'm lost, thanks to everyone that responded......Ricky

You will find it under HOW A TEAM SCORES, Rule 4.09(a)

[Senor Azul]

You will find what you want to know in OBR 4.09--How a Team Scores. And here's an approved ruling from that rule that illustrates exactly what you are asking about:

 

One out, Jones on third, Smith on first, and Brown flies out to right field. Two outs. Jones tags up and scores after the catch. Smith attempted to return to first but the right fielder's throw beat him to the base. Three outs. But Jones scored before the throw to catch Smith reached first base, hence Jones' run counts. It was not a force play.

 

By definition, it is not a force play--it's an appeal and thus a time play. And the first sentence of rule 4.09(a) says: One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

[Rich Ives]

Ok, thanks gentlemen. I understand that it's not a force play. An appeal at 1st - R1 that is declared out for the 3rd out of inning. I do not understand why it would be called a "timing play"; it's not like R1 was tagged like in a run down. So should R3"s run count? I've looked in a few books , but cannot find it. Would this be what's  called an interpretation kind of thing. I'm lost, thanks to everyone that responded......Ricky

 

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.

(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.

 

As R3 touched all the bases before the third out was made at 1B and none of the exceptions were involved the run counts.

[BretMan]

Just a side note about this question...

I participate on a few different baseball or softball related discussion boards that cover rule topics. This year alone, I have seen this same question pop up at about a dozen times. All are grounded in the misperception that throwing the ball to a fielder who's touching a base is automatically a force out (it's not), even when it's an appeal play.

And it's not just this year. Every season this same question comes up again and again. So much so that you would think it's something that happens on the field on a regular basis, a common occurrence that gets ruled on often.

I've umpired for 15 years and racked up over 1200 ball games. I have NEVER had this happen in one my games and NEVER had to make this ruling. You'd think that if a question comes up more often than, say, ones about a batter being hit on the hands with a pitch, or runners being hit by batted balls, it would mean that it's happening more often. Yet we see batters hit on the hands and runners hit by balls fairly often.

So, where exactly is this rash of bad baserunning going on? Is this happening somewhere and are you guys having to rule on it?

[ALStripes17]

Just a side note about this question...

I participate on a few different baseball or softball related discussion boards that cover rule topics. This year alone, I have seen this same question pop up at about a dozen times. All are grounded in the misperception that throwing the ball to a fielder who's touching a base is automatically a force out (it's not), even when it's an appeal play.

And it's not just this year. Every season this same question comes up again and again. So much so that you would think it's something that happens on the field on a regular basis, a common occurrence that gets ruled on often.

I've umpired for 15 years and racked up over 1200 ball games. I have NEVER had this happen in one my games and NEVER had to make this ruling. You'd think that if a question comes up more often than, say, ones about a batter being hit on the hands with a pitch, or runners being hit by batted balls, it would mean that it's happening more often. Yet we see batters hit on the hands and runners hit by balls fairly often.

So, where exactly is this rash of bad baserunning going on? Is this happening somewhere and are you guys having to rule on it?

Actually had the exact same play last year but R3 did not run hard to home since the defense threw it to 1B instead. Got the 3rd out before R3 crossed so I made sure NOT to score the run.

3B Coach comes walking across the infield after that out and says, "Well, I guess that force play would have negated my runner if he'd have gotten home before the out huh?"

Me: "No sir, if your runner crosses home before that appeal is made at 1B, then you would have another run"

Coach: "Ive played and coached over 40 years, youve got that wrong."

Me: silent and dumbfounded

I really wanted to say "You're right Coach, im blind AND I dont read the rule book. You caught me."

[maven]

Actually had the exact same play last year but R3 did not run hard to home since the defense threw it to 1B instead. Got the 3rd out before R3 crossed so I made sure NOT to score the run.

3B Coach comes walking across the infield after that out and says, "Well, I guess that force play would have negated my runner if he'd have gotten home before the out huh?"

Me: "No sir, if your runner crosses home before that appeal is made at 1B, then you would have another run"

Coach: "Ive played and coached over 40 years, youve got that wrong."

Me: silent and dumbfounded

I really wanted to say "You're right Coach, im blind AND I dont read the rule book. You caught me."

Suggested reply: "Coach, I respect your experience, but rule 4.09 hasn't changed in those 40 years. If you give me your e-mail address, I'll be happy to send you the rule and case plays."

 

This allows you to call his bluff and bluster without being a jackwagon: if he accepts your offer (unlikely), you give him the opportunity to learn something; if he declines, he needs to STFU about the rules.

[basejester]

So, where exactly is this rash of bad baserunning going on? Is this happening somewhere and are you guys having to rule on it?

I suspect it comes up because there's no way to intuitively guess the correct ruling by watching baseball games.  To a person who has never read the rule book, a force out is a play that requires a tag of the base instead of the runner.  Furthermore, there's not a simple answer to, "Is an appeal play a timing play?"  (There should be, IMHO, but there isn't.)

[GreyhoundAggie]

Coaches definitely don't know this rule. Had it come up in a game earlier this year. Ended the game on a time play like this.