Base award and retouch

[basejester]

From the PBUC 6.11:

 

Play 2: Runner on first, one out.   Batter flies out to right field for second out.  However, runner on first thought there were two out and is between second and third when the ball is caught.  Right fielder's throw to first is wild and goes into dugout.  Runner is between second and third when the ball goes out of play.

 

Ruling 2:  Runner is awarded home (two bases from his position at the time of the throw).  However, while the ball is dead, he must return to and retouch first base.  Furthermore, since he was between second and third when the ball went out of play, he must return to first before he reaches and touches third (the next base).  If he touches third, he may not return to first and if the defensive team appeals, he is out at first.  However, if the runner properly returns and retouches first before reaching third, the award then becomes third base (two bases from his original base).

---------------------

What's the most appropriate way to indicate an award like this?  Do we point the runner to home initially? (Or just indicate two bases?)  How do we then change the award to third without looking silly?  If the offense asks us, "Do we need to retouch?", do we answer?

 

[Richvee]

This just seems so odd to me. I sounds like you're trying to deek the runner into thinking he is allowed to score. When in reality, if he "takes you up on the offer" and continues around the bases, he's out on proper appeal of 1st base when play is resumed. Then if he does go back and touch 1st after you tell him he's awarded home, you look at him and say "Haha..only kidding, you get 3rd". 

 

The other odd thing about this play is the last sentence "Runner is between second and third when the ball goes out of play.". Does the where the runner is when the ball goes out of play have any bearing on this play? Is it not 2 bases from the time of the throw? Or is this play saying if R1 was between 1st and 2nd when the ball went out of play we would award 3rd right from the start and not home, even though he was between 2nd and 3rd time of throw? 

[basejester]

This just seems so odd to me. I sounds like you're trying to deek the runner into thinking he is allowed to score. When in reality, if he "takes you up on the offer" and continues around the bases, he's out on proper appeal of 1st base when play is resumed. Then if he does go back and touch 1st after you tell him he's awarded home, you look at him and say "Haha..only kidding, you get 3rd".

I agree. It feels like a riot-inducing ruling.

The other odd thing about this play is the last sentence "Runner is between second and third when the ball goes out of play.". Does the where the runner is when the ball goes out of play have any bearing on this play? Is it not 2 bases from the time of the throw? Or is this play saying if R1 was between 1st and 2nd when the ball went out of play we would award 3rd right from the start and not home, even though he was between 2nd and 3rd time of throw?

Yeah, I puzzled on that point also. The award is relative to the time of the throw but the ball actually becomes dead when it goes out of play. The runner can retreat from bases he attained while the ball is live, but not from bases he attained while the ball is dead.

[Senor Azul]

From Wendelstedt's rules interpretation manual:

 

When a runner, who has not legally tagged up from his original base after a fly ball is caught by an outfielder, is awarded bases on a ball thrown out of play, his award shall be from his position at the time of the throw. However, if the runner in violation returns to his original base after the ball is dead in order to tag-up properly, the umpire will then change his award to the time of the pitch.

 

This interpretation is supported by OBR 7.05i Comment:

 

The fact a runner is awarded a base or bases without liability to be put out does not relieve him of the responsibility to touch the base he is awarded and all intervening bases....If a runner is forced to return to a base after a catch, he must retouch his original base even though, because of some ground rule or other rule, he is awarded additional bases. He may retouch while the ball is dead and the award is then made from his original base.

 

 

[Senor Azul]

An historical reference from the WUM:

 

Until the merger of the AL and NL umpire staffs, this was one of the interpretations that were ruled differently. American League umpires would initially award the runner from his original base. The National League felt this would be coaching the defense, and would award from the runner's position on the field. If/when the runner returned, then his award would be from his original base. When interpretations were merged, the NL won out.

 

I think it was the year 2000 when the umpire staffs were merged.

[maven]

That's proper pro enforcement.

 

For amateur ball, I think I might indulge in a little preventive officiating, and say something like, "well, once you retouch 1B, your award will be 3B."

 

Kinda like taking coach his options for CI/CO. He has to come to the umpire in pro ball; for amateur ball, go to him and get it right. (IIRC, going to the coach is required in FED.)

[noumpere]

 

The other odd thing about this play is the last sentence "Runner is between second and third when the ball goes out of play.". Does the where the runner is when the ball goes out of play have any bearing on this play?

 

The points about the award and mechanics have been addressed, so I want to focus on this -- and, yes, where the runner is has a bearing on the play.  Not on the award itself, but what the runner must do.

 

In OBR (as in the reference), the runner must return to touch first BEFORE he proceeds and touches third. That's all the sentence is saying -- and the "next base" part of it is defined as "next once the ball becomes dead."

 

In FED, it doesn't matter what the runner does.  Since he was beyond his TOP base, he cannot legally return and touch first and will be out on appeal.

[Rich Ives]

That's proper pro enforcement.

 

For amateur ball, I think I might indulge in a little preventive officiating, and say something like, "well, once you retouch 1B, your award will be 3B."

 

 

 

PLEASE don't do that.

 

If I'm on offense it's my job to make sure my runners retouch.

 

If I'm on defense it's my job to watch and see if the other team knows enough to re-touch and if not to appeal.  Don't take that opportunity away.

[maven]

 

That's proper pro enforcement.

 

For amateur ball, I think I might indulge in a little preventive officiating, and say something like, "well, once you retouch 1B, your award will be 3B."

 

 

 

PLEASE don't do that.

 

If I'm on offense it's my job to make sure my runners retouch.

 

If I'm on defense it's my job to watch and see if the other team knows enough to re-touch and if not to appeal.  Don't take that opportunity away.

 

 

I certainly do NOT ordinarily coach players to retouch. Your opportunity to appeal that base-running error will be intact with me 99.999% of the time.

 

The out in this freak play is too cheap, IMHO. Telling a 16 YO kid to score when he's only entitled to 3B seems like bad officiating to me. I gather the point of the OP was to call attention to how misleading it is for a game official to provide false information to players.

 

You can officiate it as you like.  If you don't like how I'm going to call it, tell your F9 not to throw the ball away.

[grayhawk]

FWIW, the procedure in the OP is for OBR - not Fed.  In Fed, the award is based on the last legally touched base, so you would award third and then see what happens.  As noumpere said, if he's on or beyond second when the ball entered DBT, he would still be out on appeal whether he went back and touched first or not.

[Senor Azul]

Here's a recommendation on how to handle the situation from Carl Childress that can be found in his 2014 edition of his BRD:

 

Umpire-school mechanics will get an amateur umpire in trouble in some of the lower leagues...., when the ball is dead and the umpire makes the "initial" award, he will say: "You, home!" When the runner does exactly that, and the plate umpire calls him out on appeal...You can surely imagine the hubbub. For lower leagues (NCAA and down--grin), simply say: "You, third base!" NOW if he doesn't go back and retouch first, your conscience will be clear.

[maven]

Here's a recommendation on how to handle the situation from Carl Childress that can be found in his 2014 edition of his BRD:

 

Umpire-school mechanics will get an amateur umpire in trouble in some of the lower leagues...., when the ball is dead and the umpire makes the "initial" award, he will say: "You, home!" When the runner does exactly that, and the plate umpire calls him out on appeal...You can surely imagine the hubbub. For lower leagues (NCAA and down--grin), simply say: "You, third base!" NOW if he doesn't go back and retouch first, your conscience will be clear.

 

That's a mechanic that both Rich Ives and I can probably live with. If I'm wrong about Ives, he'll say so.

[UmpTTS43]

Here's a recommendation on how to handle the situation from Carl Childress that can be found in his 2014 edition of his BRD:

Umpire-school mechanics will get an amateur umpire in trouble in some of the lower leagues...., when the ball is dead and the umpire makes the "initial" award, he will say: "You, home!" When the runner does exactly that, and the plate umpire calls him out on appeal...You can surely imagine the hubbub. For lower leagues (NCAA and down--grin), simply say: "You, third base!" NOW if he doesn't go back and retouch first, your conscience will be clear.

If the runner does not retouch, then you would be giving an incorrect award in OBR based games.

Your job is to award bases properly and by the rules. It is also your responsibility to rule on the appeal. If a player asks me if he has to retouch, I simply tell them that they have their job to do and I have mine.

That being said, I would wait to give the award until after I see what the runner is doing. If he is going back to retouch, I will award third after the retouch. If he does anything other than that I will award accordingly, home.

[Rich Ives]

Here's a recommendation on how to handle the situation from Carl Childress that can be found in his 2014 edition of his BRD:

 

Umpire-school mechanics will get an amateur umpire in trouble in some of the lower leagues...., when the ball is dead and the umpire makes the "initial" award, he will say: "You, home!" When the runner does exactly that, and the plate umpire calls him out on appeal...You can surely imagine the hubbub. For lower leagues (NCAA and down--grin), simply say: "You, third base!" NOW if he doesn't go back and retouch first, your conscience will be clear.

 

I understand where you're coming from (and CC). But I think that this thought process sorta goes along with the balk warning rule some leagues want done and which many umpires think is an improper approach. The argument there is that the rules should be known and enforced and that calling it properly it will force coaches to learn the rules if they don't already know them.

 

So maybe it's because I know the ruling and 99% of youth coaches don't, but I'm not totally sure I buy that "you 3rd" strategy. You give an improper award to avoid an argument and have a clear conscience? What happens if it happens again in a different game and that umpire does it correctly. That'll start the same hubbub you're trying to avoid and cause a lot of grief for your brother-in-officiating. Sometimes you gotta do the right thing and maybe have it be a learning experience for all involved.

[DVA7130]

But isn't the defense throwing the ball out of play while appealing? I don't understand how any appeal could be legal after that point.

[noumpere]

But isn't the defense throwing the ball out of play while appealing? I don't understand how any appeal could be legal after that point.

You can appeal again after a "continuous action" appeal.  It's only an err during a "relaxed action" appeal that negates further appeals.

[noumpere]

 

Your job is to award bases properly and by the rules. It is also your responsibility to rule on the appeal. If a player asks me if he has to retouch, I simply tell them that they have their job to do and I have mine.

 

 

I agree with the awarding part, but if I'm asked a direct question, I answer it.

 

But isn't the defense throwing the ball out of play while appealing? I don't understand how any appeal could be legal after that point.

 If it's a "continuous action" appeal you can still appeal again.  It's only on a "relaxed action" appeal that an err prevents further appeals.

[DVA7130]

I understand that this is TOT.

I understand once that touch third, a retouch of first wouldn't be legal.

What I don't understand is why the baseaward changes with the retouch.

[noumpere]

I understand that this is TOT.

I understand once that touch third, a retouch of first wouldn't be legal.

What I don't understand is why the baseaward changes with the retouch.

The award is form the base last legally touched / reached.  Until there's an appeal, the runner is assumed to have run the bases legally.  So, initially, the base last touched is second.  Once the runner retouches first, that now becomes the base last legally touched.

[UmpTTS43]

 

I agree with the awarding part, but if I'm asked a direct question, I answer it.

 

That's fine as long as you are not coaching or helping a player correct a mistake. Telling a player he has to retouch a base is doing both. By doing that you are showing preference to one team by denying the other team their opportunity to execute a legal and valid appeal

[Haid D' Salaami]

You guys are making this really hard....

 

Ok.. the runner left early and didnt tag yep?

 

The defense is trying to throw out the runner...

 

The ball went out of play  ( 2 bases from the time of the throw) which is home cause the runner is past 2nd..( 3rd base is 1, home is 2 bases).. still following along..

 

The runner has a choice to make, go and retouch 2nd, then 1st,... if he does this, his now 2 bases for the ball being thrown out of bounds is 3rd base...

 

we still here

 

If the runner doesn't go back and retouch 1st and go to home, he can, i say can be called out on appeal.
 

this is not that hard...

 

as the umpires once the ball is thrown out we say " time, you score".. now if the runner goes back to 1st.. we ( the umpires) will then say.. ("you, 3rd base)

 

once the coach comes out.. oh cause he will.. you just need to tell him rule book terminology.. 

[Platejob29]

Here's a recommendation on how to handle the situation from Carl Childress that can be found in his 2014 edition of his BRD:

 

Umpire-school mechanics will get an amateur umpire in trouble in some of the lower leagues...., when the ball is dead and the umpire makes the "initial" award, he will say: "You, home!" When the runner does exactly that, and the plate umpire calls him out on appeal...You can surely imagine the hubbub. For lower leagues (NCAA and down--grin), simply say: "You, third base!" NOW if he doesn't go back and retouch first, your conscience will be clear.

Now what happens when he doesn't retouch the manager comes out and says that he should be awarded home because of where he was when the throw was made that went out of play? I think no matter how you award the bases it's a catch 22. In my opinion it's probably best to award the runner to the proper base and see if he retouches. If he doesn't and they appeal it's easier to explain to the manager that he didn't retouch and that's why he's out instead of awarding him 3rd and having to explain that he should have been awarded home originally but you weren't sure if he was going to retouch or not. Now if he does retouch and then you award him 3rd after the retouch you can also easily explain why. At least this way the rules have your back when it comes time to explain what's going on.

[Haid D' Salaami]

That's proper pro enforcement.

 

For amateur ball, I think I might indulge in a little preventive officiating, and say something like, "well, once you retouch 1B, your award will be 3B."

 

Kinda like taking coach his options for CI/CO. He has to come to the umpire in pro ball; for amateur ball, go to him and get it right. (IIRC, going to the coach is required in FED.)

Bad idea, that's coaching and can lead to a protest..

 

In the C/CO you talked about.. make the coach come to you....

[UmpireFever]

We are umpires, not coaches. Tell the runner where he needs to go based on the play as it happens. Nothing more. If he asks you does he need to retouch first just stare at him. In no way would I ever tell a runner what he needs to do. It's not my job to teach them the rules. I simply enforce them.

[Haid D' Salaami]

We are umpires, not coaches. Tell the runner where he needs to go based on the play as it happens. Nothing more. If he asks you does he need to retouch first just stare at him. In no way would I ever tell a runner what he needs to do. It's not my job to teach them the rules. I simply enforce them.

Ding Ding, ding... we have a winner.. thanks