Out at home appeal

[berns_97]

Ok well yesturday I had 2 back to back games 16U. 1st game went great no arguments, no questioning calls. 2nd game comes around and I have the plate. We have the plate meeting, and the Home Team (HT) coach comes and says how old are you? i answer "17" Are you allowed to umpire here? i just kinda chuckled. What is your strike zone like? I said you will find out. He then keeps talking and I said pretty loud to get both coaches attention but no one else in the park heard. We get the plate meeting over, everything is going great then the problem happened. HT is on the field R3 1 out last inning. Batter hits a ground ball to short. He looks at R3 and throw to first and gets the BR out. When that happens R3 runs home. 1st baseman throws to home and i see the tag. (I was 3rd base extended) I ask to see the ball and the catcher shows it to me and i call him out. Manager calls time and asks "Can you check with your partner I think he bobbled the ball" I say no problem and ask my partner and my partner says that he did bobble the ball. I turn and say out loud "He's safe" because everyone on the field was already in the dugout. Thats when the third base coach went off saying you cant do that..... yada yada yada. I didnt run him. The manager asks why hes safe and I explained. Then he goes and chirps and chirps. The thing that made it funny was that he says "you cant ask help on jugdement calls" I kept my mouth shut, but my partner goes and says "whats a check swing, whats a pulled foot? all those are judgement calls dont say you cant appeal judgement calls."

 

 

HT lost 9-2

Should i have done anything different? any tips for next time? 

[berns_97]

sorry for this being kinda long

[spiritump]

did you get together with your partner or did you yell across the field--you should of gotten together.   

[noumpere]

 

Should i have done anything different? any tips for next time? 

1) As soon as you decide to get together, try to keep the defense on the field (and the coach from going to the coaching box).

 

2) Don't let him "chirp and chirp"

 

3) Own your own argument / discussion -- once your partner tells you the ball was bobbled, he should stay out of it with the coach.  You should not "keep your mouth shut" and he should not be asking the coach about check swings, etc.

[MadMax]

Be more definite and authoritative.

 

If you see a tag, that means you saw the ball (in glove, likely) tag the runner. You then request F2 to "Show it!", and he does. You rule him out. Case closed.

 

You followed all the steps, so to speak, to sell the call. You even allowed yourself to examine any doubt (the request to "show it"). If the ball was loose, F2 would be reaching for it, or fumbling for it, or you'd see the little white nugget rolling across the ground. But in this case, he showed it to you. You have all the evidence you need, and you make your call...

 

Now, stick to it. You made a critical mistake – you let the Manager (HC) come out and inject a pill of doubt into you. It was easy to accept, because it was the same manager that gave you a ribbing about your age and apparent lack of experience. With experience, though, you will learn that that call, at the plate, is yours. Your partner didn't fail you or let you down, but the only time I would (as a base/field umpire) expect my partner to come talk to me, for a play at (his) plate, is if there's a question about an obvious rules violation (such as a no-head-first slide at home, or an obstruction that occurred during the play, etc.).

 

So, next time in that situation, sell your call with something like, "No coach, I've got a tag." or "He had control enough for the tag." If he puts the heat on you to check with your partner, @spiritump has the right idea – do so promptly and privately, but lead the discussion with, "(Joe), I've got a tag. What did you see?" Don't let your partner re-write the event for you, but take what your partner says as a factor or perspective to be considered. When it comes down to it, it's still your call.

 

PS -> Not to be picky, but why would the 3BC be chirping at you for ruling his runner "Safe" after discussion? You probably mean the Visiting Team's coach, or one of their assistant coaches... right? If that's the case, this VTC is somewhat correct... You really shouldn't be changing an Out call to a Safe call at the behest of the opposing coach.

[Replacematt]

If you see a tag, that means you saw the ball (in glove, likely) tag the runner. You then request F2 to "Show it!", and he does. You rule him out. Case closed.

 

Don't request a player to show you the ball. It creates a bad habit where you may end up doing it with further play possible, and it also creates the possibility that he drops the ball in attempting to respond to your request. He's either going to come up with it or you'll have the ability to get to where you can see what you need.

[BigUmpire]

If you see a tag, that means you saw the ball (in glove, likely) tag the runner. You then request F2 to "Show it!", and he does. You rule him out. Case closed.

Don't request a player to show you the ball. It creates a bad habit where you may end up doing it with further play possible, and it also creates the possibility that he drops the ball in attempting to respond to your request. He's either going to come up with it or you'll have the ability to get to where you can see what you need.

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[MadMax]

What @Matt's trying to say is – don't make a habit of requesting "show the ball", because of the impact it has on further play, etc. makes perfect sense.

I was just pointing out that since @berns_97 did a "show ball" request, that should have been enough to put the doubt to rest. I wasn't saying to do that every time. Another route to consider is to be deliberate in your call. Timing. Make a point of examining the components of the play one last time, then call it. That extra second (thou-sand-one) makes a big impact in selling the call.

[noumpere]

 

 

If you see a tag, that means you saw the ball (in glove, likely) tag the runner. You then request F2 to "Show it!", and he does. You rule him out. Case closed.

Don't request a player to show you the ball. It creates a bad habit where you may end up doing it with further play possible, and it also creates the possibility that he drops the ball in attempting to respond to your request. He's either going to come up with it or you'll have the ability to get to where you can see what you need.

 

????????????

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I agree with Matt on this.  The players know to either show it to you or to otherwise demonstrate control.  Just wait until you see the control before making the call.

[berns_97]

Thanks guys for the feedback. I asked my partner because when the catcher showed me the ball it was with his bear hand. Thatis why i asked my partner. Im young and thanks for helping me out.

[afaber12]

It might be a minor difference, but rather than saying "show me the ball" just wait to see the ball, the same way you would on a potential catch in the outfield. Outfielder dives or trips as they glove the ball, you'd wait to see him come up with it - and especially if you've gone out you keep trying to improve your position - and when it's clear you make the call.

[noumpere]

Thanks guys for the feedback. I asked my partner because when the catcher showed me the ball it was with his bear hand. Thatis why i asked my partner. Im young and thanks for helping me out.

That's not what they mean by "paws, read and react." 

[PonyUmpire]

It was way out of line for the coach to ask your age. Don't let him challenge your authority before the game even starts. Tell him, "that's not your concern coach." Don't reveal personal information, especially something that can be used to question your abilities. A stupid question like "are you allowed to umpire here" is going to get a smart response from me. "No coach, I just like putting the gear on and standing by home plate. The real umpire will be here in a minute."

As for the call at the plate, it sounds like you developed a decent angle on it. Going for help on something like that is going to undermine your authority for the rest of the game. Even if you aren't 100% sure, sometimes the best game management decision is to stand by your call.

[Pete Peterson Sr]

It was way out of line for the coach to ask your age. Don't let him challenge your authority before the game even starts. Tell him, "that's not your concern coach." Don't reveal personal information, especially something that can be used to question your abilities. A stupid question like "are you allowed to umpire here" is going to get a smart response from me. "No coach, I just like putting the gear on and standing by home plate. The real umpire will be here in a minute."

As for the call at the plate, it sounds like you developed a decent angle on it. Going for help on something like that is going to undermine your authority for the rest of the game. Even if you aren't 100% sure, sometimes the best game management decision is to stand by your call.

 

 This, to me, is no more acceptable than the questions posed by the coach. There is no need to crawl down in the gutter with idiots, and make the game contentious before it ever begins. Step 1: Ignore...

[PonyUmpire]

It was way out of line for the coach to ask your age. Don't let him challenge your authority before the game even starts. Tell him, "that's not your concern coach." Don't reveal personal information, especially something that can be used to question your abilities. A stupid question like "are you allowed to umpire here" is going to get a smart response from me. "No coach, I just like putting the gear on and standing by home plate. The real umpire will be here in a minute."

As for the call at the plate, it sounds like you developed a decent angle on it. Going for help on something like that is going to undermine your authority for the rest of the game. Even if you aren't 100% sure, sometimes the best game management decision is to stand by your call.

This, to me, is no more acceptable than the questions posed by the coach. There is no need to crawl down in the gutter with idiots, and make the game contentious before it ever begins. Step 1: Ignore...

When a coach asks me, as I'm standing in full uniform and gear behind home plate, if "I'm even allowed to umpire here (because I'm so young)", the game is already contentious. IMHO, that coach needs to be put in his place, and I don't think that kind of statement can be ignored.

[Replacematt]

 

 

It was way out of line for the coach to ask your age. Don't let him challenge your authority before the game even starts. Tell him, "that's not your concern coach." Don't reveal personal information, especially something that can be used to question your abilities. A stupid question like "are you allowed to umpire here" is going to get a smart response from me. "No coach, I just like putting the gear on and standing by home plate. The real umpire will be here in a minute."

As for the call at the plate, it sounds like you developed a decent angle on it. Going for help on something like that is going to undermine your authority for the rest of the game. Even if you aren't 100% sure, sometimes the best game management decision is to stand by your call.

This, to me, is no more acceptable than the questions posed by the coach. There is no need to crawl down in the gutter with idiots, and make the game contentious before it ever begins. Step 1: Ignore...

 

When a coach asks me, as I'm standing in full uniform and gear behind home plate, if "I'm even allowed to umpire here (because I'm so young)", the game is already contentious. IMHO, that coach needs to be put in his place, and I don't think that kind of statement can be ignored.

 

 

Depending on the situation, yes, it may warrant a response. Responding like a smart ass is just aggravating the situation. If there is a response, a confident, authoritative statement such as "You are not going there" is the way to go. 

 

If the coach was trying to be funny and failing, then ignoring is probably the better option.

[DVA7130]

If someone asks my age I just respond, "What's yours?".

[Pete Peterson Sr]

 

 

It was way out of line for the coach to ask your age. Don't let him challenge your authority before the game even starts. Tell him, "that's not your concern coach." Don't reveal personal information, especially something that can be used to question your abilities. A stupid question like "are you allowed to umpire here" is going to get a smart response from me. "No coach, I just like putting the gear on and standing by home plate. The real umpire will be here in a minute."

As for the call at the plate, it sounds like you developed a decent angle on it. Going for help on something like that is going to undermine your authority for the rest of the game. Even if you aren't 100% sure, sometimes the best game management decision is to stand by your call.

This, to me, is no more acceptable than the questions posed by the coach. There is no need to crawl down in the gutter with idiots, and make the game contentious before it ever begins. Step 1: Ignore...

 

When a coach asks me, as I'm standing in full uniform and gear behind home plate, if "I'm even allowed to umpire here (because I'm so young)", the game is already contentious. IMHO, that coach needs to be put in his place, and I don't think that kind of statement can be ignored.

 

So being a smartass is going to help the situation ?

[Platejob29]

As it's already been said before once you make your call and sell it don't change it. Some have said don't go get help unless the manager won't drop it then go get help. I think that's also the wrong way to go about it. Just tell him "no I saw the play and this is what I've got. It's my call I'm right on top of it I'm not getting help." If he continues to argue it and ask you to get help tell him the conversation is over and you aren't talking about it any more and walk away. If he keeps at it you've already given him plenty of warning run him and get on with the game. If it's the game ending play just forgo all that and tell him how you saw the play and exit the field. If he fallows you and you have to post game him then the league will take care of the rest. As for the comments about age that's gonna happen from time to time as a younger guy. If someone asks your age go ahead and tell them that's really not a big deal but when he makes a second comment after that questioning you about you not being allowed to umpire there fire back with a smart ass remark. At that point he already has shown he doesn't respect you and it isn't going to make it any worse if you come back at him and show him you're not gonna back down to him. I know a lot of people here on the forums don't like the aggressive approach but as a younger guy some ties you have to be. Some see that as having a chip on your shoulder but most people who see it that way aren't 17 year old umpires and don't have to deal with the same kind of crap the younger guys have to deal with. Plus when you get into higher level baseball if you don't take an aggressive route you're gonna get bulldozed by managers and players. Sometimes you just have to put them in their place.

[mjr_2013]

If someone asks my age I just respond, "What's yours?".

 

This is what I thought of too.

 

"How old are you?"

I respond: "How old are you?"

 

"Are you allowed to umpire here?"

I respond: "Are you allowed to manage here?"

[Replacematt]

 

If someone asks my age I just respond, "What's yours?".

 

This is what I thought of too.

 

"How old are you?"

I respond: "How old are you?"

 

"Are you allowed to umpire here?"

I respond: "Are you allowed to manage here?"

 

 

"After baiting HC, he responded with an unsportsmanlike comment, at which time I ejected him."

 

You can choose to be a kid, or you can choose to be an umpire.

[mjr_2013]

I think it's interesting that me and @PonyUmpire both have the smart ass responses the general consensus doesn't like. We're both younger (I'm 19, and I think he's 18)... I feel like that question is much more likely to get under our skin, and elicit a smart ass response from us.

 

Is it right? Probably not, but my age has zero bearing on my umpiring, and zero bearing on the game. My assigner found me to be suitable for the game, that's all they need to know.

 

I've been put down as an umpire before because of my age, and it pisses me off. When I was 16, I was a better umpire than a lot of guys who were three times my age (in my area at least)... So when a manager laughs me off as a joke at the pre-game meeting, asking "how old are you?", yeah, I am more likely to be a smart ass than to say "I'm 19 years old, sir".

 

@BRUMP, what say you?

[BRUMP]

I think it's interesting that me and @PonyUmpire both have the smart ass responses the general consensus doesn't like. We're both younger (I'm 19, and I think he's 18)... I feel like that question is much more likely to get under our skin, and elicit a smart ass response from us.

 

Is it right? Probably not, but my age has zero bearing on my umpiring, and zero bearing on the game. My assigner found me to be suitable for the game, that's all they need to know.

 

I've been put down as an umpire before because of my age, and it pisses me off. When I was 16, I was a better umpire than a lot of guys who were three times my age (in my area at least)... So when a manager laughs me off as a joke at the pre-game meeting, asking "how old are you?", yeah, I am more likely to be a smart ass than to say "I'm 19 years old, sir".

 

@BRUMP, what say you?

 

@mjr_2013 100% agree. nothing pisses me off more than someone questioning my age. if I'm on the field it should show that someone who knows plenty more about umpiring than you do thought i was suitable for this game. if i was asked how old i was i would respond honestly because sometimes it can be a gateway to a complement. (i.e. your as good as the older guys), but more often than not it is used in a derogatory fashion. if someone asked if i was allowed to umpire here as much as i wanna think id take the high road, id probably give them a smartass response back. id either say 

A) are you allowed to coach here?

b ) no i just came cause i like the way navy blue looks on me or

c) if i was really in a bad mood i could always go with a 

[mjr_2013]

 

I think it's interesting that me and @PonyUmpire both have the smart ass responses the general consensus doesn't like. We're both younger (I'm 19, and I think he's 18)... I feel like that question is much more likely to get under our skin, and elicit a smart ass response from us.

 

Is it right? Probably not, but my age has zero bearing on my umpiring, and zero bearing on the game. My assigner found me to be suitable for the game, that's all they need to know.

 

I've been put down as an umpire before because of my age, and it pisses me off. When I was 16, I was a better umpire than a lot of guys who were three times my age (in my area at least)... So when a manager laughs me off as a joke at the pre-game meeting, asking "how old are you?", yeah, I am more likely to be a smart ass than to say "I'm 19 years old, sir".

 

@BRUMP, what say you?

 

@mjr_2013 100% agree. nothing pisses me off more than someone questioning my age. if I'm on the field it should show that someone who knows plenty more about umpiring than you do thought i was suitable for this game. if i was asked how old i was i would respond honestly because sometimes it can be a gateway to a complement. (i.e. your as good as the older guys), but more often than not it is used in a derogatory fashion. if someone asked if i was allowed to umpire here as much as i wanna think id take the high road, id probably give them a smartass response back. id either say 

A) are you allowed to coach here?

b ) no i just came cause i like the way navy blue looks on me or

c) if i was really in a bad mood i could always go with a 

>

 

[James Walker]

They are saying it to get under your skin. The fact that you let it piss you off let's me know it got to you. In short they won. A smart a$$ remark may make you feel better. But in the end, you look and are seen as a smart a$$ kid who can't handle their business, which is the complete opposite of what you want. A simple "Coach, we aren't going there" works. It lets this DB coach know that what he said is inappropriate and you will not tolerate any more comments on age. It's something you could put in a report and defend if, or more likely when, you have to dump this coach.

I'm talking to you guys from experience. I know what it's like. I started when I was 14. When I started, most of the games I worked had coaches who had either coached me or coached my brothers or both. And yes, I tried the smart a$$ route first. I didn't improve my situation, it made it worse. No respect, even though I was one of the better umpires there. It all changed when I met a man named Charlie Strasser ( some guys from the Houston area might know him). And he told me the same thing I'm tell y'all. Actions speak louder than any words you can ever say. Yes, I still had coaches try and get me on my age. But by using that simple phrase and taking care of my business on the field, I earned their respect. They knew I belonged there and call the game right and fair.

I have really enjoyed watching you two grow as umpire these past few years I've been lucky enough to be here. I'm just hoping you can learn from my mistake and not repeat it.