Balk/INF/fair-foul

[FleasOf1000Camels]

This is confusing on several levels.  Let me know what you think.

 

The field we're playing on is a flex-field, all dirt infield that can have bases at 60-70 or 80 feet.  The infield is VERY hard packed clay, almost like concrete.  Between pitcher's plate and 2nd base there is a submerged water hose connection.  It's inside a 6" PVC pipe, covered with a plastic cap, more or less level with the ground.  That cap is 76' from home plate.

 

Scenario A: (as it REALLY happened)

12u game on 70' bases, playing under OBR. I am BU.

Bases loaded, 1 out.  Pitcher working from the stretch, but blows right through the set.

Both umpires call BALK, but pitch is already on the way.

Batter hits pop fly right in the middle of the infield.

Both umps point up and call INFIELD FLY.

(I'm thinking to myself "since the batter's out should we kill the play right now and enforce the balk?")

Both F4 and F6 are calling for the ball, and both are in position to make the catch.

However, just before the ball lands, they both step back and the ball lands untouched.

The ball lands with a loud CRACK right on the edge of that plastic cap, then ricochets toward 3B line.

The ball crosses foul line about 8' in front of 3B, then rolls under the gate and in the dugout.

 

When sorting this out, consider these alternate scenarios:

B.  Forget about the balk, but take the rest of the play just as it happened.

C.  Forget about the IFR...say there were 2 out when the play began.

D.  Say instead of rolling in the dugout the ball hit R3 in foul territory.

 

Have fun.

 

 

 

[ALStripes17]

This is confusing on several levels. Let me know what you think.

The field we're playing on is a flex-field, all dirt infield that can have bases at 60-70 or 80 feet. The infield is VERY hard packed clay, almost like concrete. Between pitcher's plate and 2nd base there is a submerged water hose connection. It's inside a 6" PVC pipe, covered with a plastic cap, more or less level with the ground. That cap is 76' from home plate.

Scenario A: (as it REALLY happened)

12u game on 70' bases, playing under OBR. I am BU.

Bases loaded, 1 out. Pitcher working from the stretch, but blows right through the set.

Both umpires call BALK, but pitch is already on the way.

Batter hits pop fly right in the middle of the infield.

Both umps point up and call INFIELD FLY.

(I'm thinking to myself "since the batter's out should we kill the play right now and enforce the balk?")

Both F4 and F6 are calling for the ball, and both are in position to make the catch.

However, just before the ball lands, they both step back and the ball lands untouched.

The ball lands with a loud CRACK right on the edge of that plastic cap, then ricochets toward 3B line.

The ball crosses foul line about 8' in front of 3B, then rolls under the gate and in the dugout.

When sorting this out, consider these alternate scenarios:

B. Forget about the balk, but take the rest of the play just as it happened.

C. Forget about the IFR...say there were 2 out when the play began.

D. Say instead of rolling in the dugout the ball hit R3 in foul territory.

Have fun.

From what I can gather, I have what would be a fair ball since the ball went past the line between 1B and 3B (would consider that touching fair beyond the base)

B) fair batted ball out of play - all runners 2 base award TOP, batter is still out on infield fly

C) fair batted ball out of play - all runners (and batter-runner) 2 base award TOP

D) this would either be a play on or an interference. I dont have rule books in front of me but I think the batted ball must PASS all infielders for there to be no INT (unless intentional in this situation which is always INT).

If it's PASS all infielders, I have INT on R3, all runners return to base TOP and BR would be either out on IFF or credited with single (2 outs).

If it is based on fielders being able to make a play, I have nothing unless intentional :)

[Jimurray]

Only FED uses the imaginary line for fair/foul and they don't say from what part of the base or base point the line originates. That's a foul ball in OBR.

[Omega194]

Foul ball

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[FleasOf1000Camels]

@Jimurray

 

While I agree that only FED makes specific mention of the "imaginary line between first and third base", if you read the OBR definition of a fair ball you see this "...or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first or third base."  I'm not sure I see these two rule sets differing in any way other than semantics.  That ball landed on fair ground past first/third base, and don't see any CLEAR distinction between that ball landing where it did and one that lands past first or third but NEARER the foul line.

 

In the end, we determined that the fair/foul REALLY didn't make any difference.

 

If the ball is FAIR the batter's out on IFR, and therefore unable to advance, so the play would be wiped out, the BALK would be enforced. Move all runners up one base and put the batter back at the plate with the same count he had before the balk.

 

If the ball is FOUL, the result is exactly the same...negate the play and enforce the balk.

[Replacematt]

This is confusing on several levels.  Let me know what you think.

 

The field we're playing on is a flex-field, all dirt infield that can have bases at 60-70 or 80 feet.  The infield is VERY hard packed clay, almost like concrete.  Between pitcher's plate and 2nd base there is a submerged water hose connection.  It's inside a 6" PVC pipe, covered with a plastic cap, more or less level with the ground.  That cap is 76' from home plate.

 

Scenario A: (as it REALLY happened)

12u game on 70' bases, playing under OBR. I am BU.

Bases loaded, 1 out.  Pitcher working from the stretch, but blows right through the set.

Both umpires call BALK, but pitch is already on the way.

Batter hits pop fly right in the middle of the infield.

Both umps point up and call INFIELD FLY.

(I'm thinking to myself "since the batter's out should we kill the play right now and enforce the balk?")

Both F4 and F6 are calling for the ball, and both are in position to make the catch.

However, just before the ball lands, they both step back and the ball lands untouched.

The ball lands with a loud CRACK right on the edge of that plastic cap, then ricochets toward 3B line.

The ball crosses foul line about 8' in front of 3B, then rolls under the gate and in the dugout.

 

When sorting this out, consider these alternate scenarios:

B.  Forget about the balk, but take the rest of the play just as it happened.

C.  Forget about the IFR...say there were 2 out when the play began.

D.  Say instead of rolling in the dugout the ball hit R3 in foul territory.

 

Have fun.

 

You forgot about the CI and R2 interfering with F6.

[Jimurray]

@Jimurray

 

While I agree that only FED makes specific mention of the "imaginary line between first and third base", if you read the OBR definition of a fair ball you see this "...or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first or third base."  I'm not sure I see these two rule sets differing in any way other than semantics.  That ball landed on fair ground past first/third base, and don't see any CLEAR distinction between that ball landing where it did and one that lands past first or third but NEARER the foul line.

 

In the end, we determined that the fair/foul REALLY didn't make any difference.

 

If the ball is FAIR the batter's out on IFR, and therefore unable to advance, so the play would be wiped out, the BALK would be enforced. Move all runners up one base and put the batter back at the plate with the same count he had before the balk.

 

If the ball is FOUL, the result is exactly the same...negate the play and enforce the balk.

Luckily the semantics allow me to call it foul in OBR and NCAA. I would also call it foul in FED and take my chances. Of course the occurrence would be rare but let's say they put (on a well equipped field) the mud scraper on the back of the mound past your line. A grounder hits the scraper and goes foul. Are you going to call that fair?

[Rich Ives]

@Jimurray

 

While I agree that only FED makes specific mention of the "imaginary line between first and third base", if you read the OBR definition of a fair ball you see this "...or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first or third base."  I'm not sure I see these two rule sets differing in any way other than semantics.  That ball landed on fair ground past first/third base, and don't see any CLEAR distinction between that ball landing where it did and one that lands past first or third but NEARER the foul line.

 

In the end, we determined that the fair/foul REALLY didn't make any difference.

 

If the ball is FAIR the batter's out on IFR, and therefore unable to advance, so the play would be wiped out, the BALK would be enforced. Move all runners up one base and put the batter back at the plate with the same count he had before the balk.

 

If the ball is FOUL, the result is exactly the same...negate the play and enforce the balk.

 

But OBR also automatically makes it fair if it touches 1B, 2B, or 3B.  Therefore one can say it has to go beyond the actual square to be fair.

[Jimurray]

@Jimurray

 

While I agree that only FED makes specific mention of the "imaginary line between first and third base", if you read the OBR definition of a fair ball you see this "...or that first falls on fair territory on or beyond first or third base."  I'm not sure I see these two rule sets differing in any way other than semantics.  That ball landed on fair ground past first/third base, and don't see any CLEAR distinction between that ball landing where it did and one that lands past first or third but NEARER the foul line.

 

In the end, we determined that the fair/foul REALLY didn't make any difference.

 

If the ball is FAIR the batter's out on IFR, and therefore unable to advance, so the play would be wiped out, the BALK would be enforced. Move all runners up one base and put the batter back at the plate with the same count he had before the balk.

 

If the ball is FOUL, the result is exactly the same...negate the play and enforce the balk.

 

But OBR also automatically makes it fair if it touches 1B, 2B, or 3B.  Therefore one can say it has to go beyond the actual square to be fair.

To expound upon Rich's point, a grounder hits a sprinkler housing in the grass a foot inside the base path between 1B and 2B and somehow bounces into foul territory. What do we have?

[LMSANS]

What am I missing here?

Once the IFF is declared, the balk is acknowledged.  You wait to see the fair/foul disposition and then go with the balk.

If its fair, BR didn't advance a base - balk.

If its foul, BR didn't advance a base - balk.

 

What else matters?

[goody14]

 

But OBR also automatically makes it fair if it touches 1B, 2B, or 3B.  Therefore one can say it has to go beyond the actual square to be fair.

 

I am not seeing how you get from A to B on this one.  The rule specifically states "on or beyond first or third" - if they wanted outside the square why not just say it.

 

FED also has a ball fair that touches a base and they don't buy into the outside the square interpretation.

 

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul?  I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away.  Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

 

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter?  Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

[noumpere]

 

 

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul?  I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away.  Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

 

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter?  Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

 

 

Close.

 

The rubber is 60-6 away.  Second is 127-3.x away.  so, the rubber is in front of the line from first to third.  That's why it's foul in FED.

 

It's foul in OBR and NCAA because it didn't touch outside the square.  I'm pretty sure BRD has a source for this.

[noumpere]

What am I missing here?

Once the IFF is declared, the balk is acknowledged.  You wait to see the fair/foul disposition and then go with the balk.

If its fair, BR didn't advance a base - balk.

If its foul, BR didn't advance a base - balk.

 

What else matters?

You're missing a bunch of mental mastication that the others seem to want to go through.  As soon as it's an infield fly -- kill it and enforce the balk.

 

If there was no infield fly, or no balk (to take the other permutations on the play), then it's a foul ball.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

But OBR also automatically makes it fair if it touches 1B, 2B, or 3B.  Therefore one can say it has to go beyond the actual square to be fair.

 

I am not seeing how you get from A to B on this one.  The rule specifically states "on or beyond first or third" - if they wanted outside the square why not just say it.

 

FED also has a ball fair that touches a base and they don't buy into the outside the square interpretation.

 

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul?  I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away.  Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

 

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter?  Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

 

 

I get from A to B easily.  The untouched batted ball isn't officially fair unless it touches 2B so therefore if it hits before it gets to 2B it isn't fair yet. So if it then goes foul from a point before it gets there it's foul.

[VAUmp]

1.  Call Time...

 

2.  Get with Partner...

 

3.  Leave Field...

 

4.  Drink Beer

[afaber12]

The situation as originally described (and using OBR, because I don't know of the other codes and have never heard of this line from first to third in the context of ruling, only in positioning for umpires): the IFF means that regardless of fair/foul, the batter can't advance so go back to the balk, pitch is nullified, runners move up one base, same batter at bat with the same count as before the balk.
 
B (No balk): When you say "The ball crosses foul line about 8' in front of 3B, ..." I'm assuming that it's between home and third. Therefore the ball is foul, regardless of the exact positioning of the cap, assuming its somewhere in the diamond:

• it didn't settle on fair ground,
• it didn't bound to the outfield past first or third - while it was in fair territory it never left the infield, defined in 1.04 as the 90ft square with the bases at the corners,
• it didn't touch first, second or third base,
• it didn't first fall on or beyond first/third in fair territory,
• it didn't touch a player or umpire in fair territory, and
• it didn't leave the playing field in flight from fair territory.

The fourth point seems to be the one of concern here, though before seeing this thread I would never have thought it to be an issue. At a bare minimum, to be beyond either of those bases the ball would have to land more than 90ft from the point of the plate. (OK, 70ft in this case, but you know what I mean.) This imaginary line from first to third (which presumably should be measured from the corner of the respective bases on the foul line and on the outfield side of the base, as that's the actual point of the base) would be only a little more than 2/3 the distance as it crosses the line from home to second. Realistically though, in this context to be beyond either first or third it has to be on the outfield. The ball can't have "gone past" the base if its still on the infield, because its a combination of both distance and direction.

 

If I've misunderstood the "in front", and it actually crossed the foul line on the outfield side of the base, fair ball, batter's out on the IFF, runners can advance at their peril up until the ball goes into the dugout, at which point they get two bases TOP.

 

C (No IFF): As above its a foul ball, meaning the batter can't reach first so enforce the balk. (Or its a fair ball on my misread of the description: everyone gets two bases on the fair batted ball going out of play, nullifying the balk.)

 

D (Hits R3 in foul territory): Same as the original situation - either the fair IFF or foul non-IFF means the balk has to be enforced.

 

Unless there was the potential for an interference call on R3 when the ball hits him...

[goody14]

 

 

 

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul?  I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away.  Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

 

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter?  Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

 

 

Close.

 

The rubber is 60-6 away.  Second is 127-3.x away.  so, the rubber is in front of the line from first to third.  That's why it's foul in FED.

 

It's foul in OBR and NCAA because it didn't touch outside the square.  I'm pretty sure BRD has a source for this.

 

I could not find it in the BRD.  

 

J/R does state an in-flight ball has to land beyond the square to be fair.  

 

Assuming a ground ball, that hits something in the field behind the mound (yet in front of second) and bounces back to foul ground would also be foul since it did not meet any of the criteria for fair ball.

 

Looks like I learned something today.

 

For the record, this might be one instance where the FED ruling makes more sense - in my head at least.

 

But, I don't write 'em, I just call 'em. 

[Jimurray]

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul? I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away. Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter? Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

Close.

The rubber is 60-6 away. Second is 127-3.x away. so, the rubber is in front of the line from first to third. That's why it's foul in FED.

It's foul in OBR and NCAA because it didn't touch outside the square. I'm pretty sure BRD has a source for this.

I could not find it in the BRD.

J/R does state an in-flight ball has to land beyond the square to be fair.

Assuming a ground ball, that hits something in the field behind the mound (yet in front of second) and bounces back to foul ground would also be foul since it did not meet any of the criteria for fair ball.

Looks like I learned something today.

For the record, this might be one instance where the FED ruling makes more sense - in my head at least.

But, I don't write 'em, I just call 'em.

The BRD waffles on this. If the FED ruling makes sense. I would recommend walking the infield on all your games.

[ALStripes17]

The situation as originally described (and using OBR, because I don't know of the other codes and have never heard of this line from first to third in the context of ruling, only in positioning for umpires): the IFF means that regardless of fair/foul, the batter can't advance so go back to the balk, pitch is nullified, runners move up one base, same batter at bat with the same count as before the balk.

B (No balk): When you say "The ball crosses foul line about 8' in front of 3B, ..." I'm assuming that it's between home and third. Therefore the ball is foul, regardless of the exact positioning of the cap, assuming its somewhere in the diamond:

• it didn't settle on fair ground,
  
• it didn't bound to the outfield past first or third - while it was in fair territory it never left the infield, defined in 1.04 as the 90ft square with the bases at the corners,
  
• it didn't touch first, second or third base,
  
• it didn't first fall on or beyond first/third in fair territory,
  
• it didn't touch a player or umpire in fair territory, and
  
• it didn't leave the playing field in flight from fair territory.
  

The fourth point seems to be the one of concern here, though before seeing this thread I would never have thought it to be an issue. At a bare minimum, to be beyond either of those bases the ball would have to land more than 90ft from the point of the plate. (OK, 70ft in this case, but you know what I mean.) This imaginary line from first to third (which presumably should be measured from the corner of the respective bases on the foul line and on the outfield side of the base, as that's the actual point of the base) would be only a little more than 2/3 the distance as it crosses the line from home to second. Realistically though, in this context to be beyond either first or third it has to be on the outfield. The ball can't have "gone past" the base if its still on the infield, because its a combination of both distance and direction.

If I've misunderstood the "in front", and it actually crossed the foul line on the outfield side of the base, fair ball, batter's out on the IFF, runners can advance at their peril up until the ball goes into the dugout, at which point they get two bases TOP.

C (No IFF): As above its a foul ball, meaning the batter can't reach first so enforce the balk. (Or its a fair ball on my misread of the description: everyone gets two bases on the fair batted ball going out of play, nullifying the balk.)

D (Hits R3 in foul territory): Same as the original situation - either the fair IFF or foul non-IFF means the balk has to be enforced.

Unless there was the potential for an interference call on R3 when the ball hits him...

Where in the world is this 2/3's distance coming from?

The distance from home to 2B (or 1B to 3B) would be 90*square root of 2 ... which is approx. 127.28 ft .... so the halfway point would be approx 63.64 ft.

On a 70 ft diamond the full dist would be approx 99 ft ... so halfway would be approx 49.5 ft.

The math background in me couldnt take it anymore .. im sorry

[afaber12]

Where in the world is this 2/3's distance coming from?

The distance from home to 2B (or 1B to 3B) would be 90*square root of 2 ... which is approx. 127.28 ft .... so the halfway point would be approx 63.64 ft.

On a 70 ft diamond the full dist would be approx 99 ft ... so halfway would be approx 49.5 ft.

The math background in me couldnt take it anymore .. im sorry

I'm saying that whatever distance the base path is (whether 90ft, 70ft, or some other variation), that the distance to that half way point is going to be a little more than 2/3 the base path distance itself. As my mum the maths teacher might say, I wasn't showing my working and skipped straight to the answer as an approximation. 63.64ft isn't that much more than 60ft, and 49.50ft isn't that much more than 46.67ft. I wasn't saying it was exact, I was just trying to avoid the geek-based ridicule (good nature-ed though it would be) that I got last time I talked about A Brief History Of Time.

 

Thanks for blowing my cover.

 

 

[goody14]

 

 

 

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul? I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away. Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter? Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

Close.

The rubber is 60-6 away. Second is 127-3.x away. so, the rubber is in front of the line from first to third. That's why it's foul in FED.

It's foul in OBR and NCAA because it didn't touch outside the square. I'm pretty sure BRD has a source for this. I could not find it in the BRD.

J/R does state an in-flight ball has to land beyond the square to be fair.

Assuming a ground ball, that hits something in the field behind the mound (yet in front of second) and bounces back to foul ground would also be foul since it did not meet any of the criteria for fair ball.

Looks like I learned something today.

For the record, this might be one instance where the FED ruling makes more sense - in my head at least.

But, I don't write 'em, I just call 'em. The BRD waffles on this. If the FED ruling makes sense. I would recommend walking the infield on all your games.

 

I am 95% sure going to regret this....

 

I have a feeling you are just making fun of me - which is fine.  But, in case there is some bit of wisdom you were trying to convey, let me say I don't understand your comment.

 

If this is snark then move along, there is nothing to see here.

[Jimurray]

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul? I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away. Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter? Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

Close.

The rubber is 60-6 away. Second is 127-3.x away. so, the rubber is in front of the line from first to third. That's why it's foul in FED.

It's foul in OBR and NCAA because it didn't touch outside the square. I'm pretty sure BRD has a source for this. I could not find it in the BRD.

J/R does state an in-flight ball has to land beyond the square to be fair.

Assuming a ground ball, that hits something in the field behind the mound (yet in front of second) and bounces back to foul ground would also be foul since it did not meet any of the criteria for fair ball.

Looks like I learned something today.

For the record, this might be one instance where the FED ruling makes more sense - in my head at least.

But, I don't write 'em, I just call 'em. The BRD waffles on this. If the FED ruling makes sense. I would recommend walking the infield on Iall your games.

I am 95% sure going to regret this....

 

I have a feeling you are just making fun of me - which is fine.  But, in case there is some bit of wisdom you were trying to convey, let me say I don't understand your comment.

 

If this is snark then move along, there is nothing to see here.

If you're gonna call it that way you would want to know where any valve covers or sprinkler heads were in relationship to the line. What part of the base does FED draw the line from? I'm guessing the corner closest to HP but they don't specify.

[noumpere]

 

If you're gonna call it that way you would want to know where any valve covers or sprinkler heads were in relationship to the line. What part of the base does FED draw the line from? I'm guessing the corner closest to HP but they don't specify.

 

It's a little confusing because the "base" is really a point in the ground, and the "bag" is used to identify that point and touching the "bag" is the same as touching the "base."  And, except for the parts of the book on measuring, the term "base" is used instead of "bag" (and I'm not sure FED even uses the difference for measuring).

 

In any event, the first and third base bags are placed "inside" the base point.  The base point (the far corner of the bag from home) is what should be used.

 

The second base bag is centered on the base point -- so only 25% of it is within the infield.

[Rich Ives]

 

 

 

 

 

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul? I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away. Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter? Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

Close.

The rubber is 60-6 away. Second is 127-3.x away. so, the rubber is in front of the line from first to third. That's why it's foul in FED.

It's foul in OBR and NCAA because it didn't touch outside the square. I'm pretty sure BRD has a source for this. I could not find it in the BRD.

J/R does state an in-flight ball has to land beyond the square to be fair.

Assuming a ground ball, that hits something in the field behind the mound (yet in front of second) and bounces back to foul ground would also be foul since it did not meet any of the criteria for fair ball.

Looks like I learned something today.

For the record, this might be one instance where the FED ruling makes more sense - in my head at least.

But, I don't write 'em, I just call 'em. The BRD waffles on this. If the FED ruling makes sense. I would recommend walking the infield on Iall your games. I am 95% sure going to regret this....

 

I have a feeling you are just making fun of me - which is fine.  But, in case there is some bit of wisdom you were trying to convey, let me say I don't understand your comment.

 

If this is snark then move along, there is nothing to see here.

If you're gonna call it that way you would want to know where any valve covers or sprinkler heads were in relationship to the line. What part of the base does FED draw the line from? I'm guessing the corner closest to HP but they don't specify.

 

 

In OBR at least the actual base is the point on the ground at the corners of the square. The bags and plate are just markers.

[Jimurray]

So - my question - Why is a ball that hits the rubber and bounces back foul? I had always assumed it was because rubber is 60 ft away, 1st and 3rd base are 90 feet away. Ball did not travel beyond a base so it is foul.

Are you saying it is foul because it "settled on foul territory between home and 1st (or 3rd) base" and the distance did not matter? Or are you saying distance only matters if the angle of the hit puts it near 1st or 3rd?

Close.

The rubber is 60-6 away. Second is 127-3.x away. so, the rubber is in front of the line from first to third. That's why it's foul in FED.

It's foul in OBR and NCAA because it didn't touch outside the square. I'm pretty sure BRD has a source for this. I could not find it in the BRD.

J/R does state an in-flight ball has to land beyond the square to be fair.

Assuming a ground ball, that hits something in the field behind the mound (yet in front of second) and bounces back to foul ground would also be foul since it did not meet any of the criteria for fair ball.

Looks like I learned something today.

For the record, this might be one instance where the FED ruling makes more sense - in my head at least.

But, I don't write 'em, I just call 'em. The BRD waffles on this. If the FED ruling makes sense. I would recommend walking the infield on Iall your games. I am 95% sure going to regret this....

 

I have a feeling you are just making fun of me - which is fine.  But, in case there is some bit of wisdom you were trying to convey, let me say I don't understand your comment.

 

If this is snark then move along, there is nothing to see here.

If you're gonna call it that way you would want to know where any valve covers or sprinkler heads were in relationship to the line. What part of the base does FED draw the line from? I'm guessing the corner closest to HP but they don't specify.

 

In OBR at least the actual base is the point on the ground at the corners of the square. The bags and plate are just markers.

But, they are markers that are used to determine fair or foul. A ball that hits the HP corner of the1B or 3B bag is fair. A ball that passes over the that corner is fair. Or have I been calling it wrong?

I don't know why FED did the 1B - 3B line thing. If it comes from the base point they left a triangle of the bag foul but covered themselves with a ball touching the "base" as fair. As it is, I don't care where it comes from, I'm not calling it that way if the rare occasion might present itself.

[goody14]

My guess (granted dangerous to put myself in someone else's head) is based on statements in afaber12's post.  FED just decided to take angle out of the equation and only examine the distance a ball traveled.  The line is 90ft away and they are saying any ball that travels 90 ft and landed in fair territory has gone beyond first or third and is fair.

 

People have said that FED focuses on safety, participation and simplicity - I think they are just trying to make it more simple.

 

I think of it this way - if you drive from Indianapolis to St. Louis, have you gone beyond Chicago?  Well in strict terms you are more west that Chicago, so I guess you have even though you go no where near Chicago.  

 

Same logic a ball that hits a sprinkler head 110 from home plate right near the second base cutout has gone over 90 ft and is "beyond" the base.

 

My problem is that I learned FED first and honestly had no idea this rule was different.  Another example of why this board rules.